 Apophis' Fleet (Season 1,2 Cliffhanger), Not sure if this has been discussed b4? |
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| Raz |
 Jan 17th 2004, 4:33 PM
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#1
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Colonel  Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male  |
After SG-1 destroyed Apophis' Mother Ships that came to attack Earth, Brat'ac said that weakened his forces sinificantly? How is that possible. Apophis was at the rank of System Lord, he must have had more than 2 mother ships! Plus in Fair Game the Asgard said that the System Lords could attack us 100X more powerful so there were only a dozen at the rank of system lord therefore 2 X 100 = 200 Ships. 200/12 = 16.6 . So lets just say that every system lord had 16 ships and Apophis only had 2? He shouldn't have been wasting his last 2 ships on us then should he? Pretty stupid!
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| Emmyloo |
 Jan 17th 2004, 4:40 PM
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#2
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Captain  Group: Members Posts: 953 Joined: June 7th 2003 From: Kent (UK) Member No.: 1,745 Gender: Female |
When Bra'tac said Apophis' forces were weakened, i took that to mean in terms of men (jaffa), not in terms of ships. Although Apophis only took 2 motherships to Earth, he probably had a lot of Jaffa on board... i mean, he was trying to wipe out/enslve the whole of Earth so i think he'd need more than just a few Jaffa to do that.
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| Raz |
Jan 17th 2004, 4:41 PM
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#3
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Colonel Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male |
Even as a system lord though, surely he had control of many planets filled with Jaffa who served him?
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| Emmyloo |
Jan 17th 2004, 4:45 PM
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#4
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Captain Group: Members Posts: 953 Joined: June 7th 2003 From: Kent (UK) Member No.: 1,745 Gender: Female |
Even so, losing 2 motherships full of Jaffa would still make a bit of a dent in his army. Maybe Bra'tac was exaggerating (sp?), but i think even with control of other worlds with Jaffa, losing those 2 motherships would have weakened his forces quite a lot.
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| WMCoolmon |
Jan 17th 2004, 4:47 PM
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#5
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Second Lieutenant  Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: July 15th 2003 Member No.: 2,031 |
Maybe Apophis had picked the best of his Jaffa to go with him to earth.
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| Raz |
Jan 17th 2004, 4:48 PM
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#6
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Colonel Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male |
He still should have had other ships and jaffa, being at his rank. If not then he must have been in the rank of minor lord cause even they would have more ships and jaffa than he did!
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| Emmyloo |
Jan 17th 2004, 5:02 PM
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#7
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Captain Group: Members Posts: 953 Joined: June 7th 2003 From: Kent (UK) Member No.: 1,745 Gender: Female |
Yes but its not like Bra'tac said they had completley destroyed Apophis' forces, he only said they had weakened them.
Apophis probably did have other ships and other Jaffa, but they could have been spread out all over the place, leaving his forces towards this part of the galaxy, weakened. |
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| Lit Gal |
Jan 17th 2004, 5:35 PM
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#8
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Second Lieutenant Group: Members Posts: 616 Joined: December 19th 2003 From: Arizona Member No.: 3,031 Gender: Female |
The biggest damage was probably to his reputation. The goa'uld are preditory and turn on each other the minute they see weakness, so when Apophis lost two ships and many, many jaffa to lowly little humans, the other system lords may have taken this as a sign of weakness and grabbed planets at the edge of his empire. Plus, Teal'c and Daniel said that with the feudal system Apophis ruled, it takes time to raise and army, so the army in those two ships probably did make up a good chunk of his elite forces.
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| Raz |
Jan 18th 2004, 3:57 AM
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#9
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Colonel Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male |
Why did he need his "elite" forces. He saw humans as basic slaves even though we had become quite powerful he still underestimated us. |
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| WMCoolmon |
Jan 18th 2004, 3:21 PM
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#10
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Second Lieutenant Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: July 15th 2003 Member No.: 2,031 |
Bringing along his elite Jaffa would make a bigger impression on the people of Earth. If they saw Jaffa making stupid mistakes and dying left and right, they'd be more inclined to rebel and make things harder for him. By sending the best-of-the-best, he'd come off as more powerful and could keep order through fear of force rather than through force itself (Tarkin doctrine).
Plus, he was bringing along himself; more and better Jaffa means less chance that he'll get shot. Finally, he really had no clue what level of tech earth had. Remember that Bra'tac, his first prime, thought Earth would have spacegoing warships. |
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| Apis |
Jan 18th 2004, 3:47 PM
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#11
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Major General  Group: Members Posts: 2,474 Joined: March 15th 2003 From: Canada Member No.: 1,116 Gender: Male |
Why would Apophis bring his best Jaffa to earth? I mean all we were at this point was a bit of nuissance and considering that he has only been bothered by us for about 9 months at the point of this episode I can't see him using elite guards that he would normally reserve for enemies that he has been fighting with for thousands of years. Also, we saw from the parallel universe episode that the majority of Apophis' attack was done from space; and the only time, to our knowledge, that they used ground forces was when they were trying to take the SGC. So I can see no logical reason why Apophis would see a need to bring his best Jaffa.
Well we also have to consider the amount of growth that the Goa'uld have been going through since SG1 has started picking Goa'uld off one by one. It is very possible that at the time of Apophis' attack two ships were a lot for any one Goa'uld to have. A season later, however, in "Fair Game" the system lords may have grown so much (probably partly due to SG1's presence) that now 16 ships is average for a Goa'uld to posess. I don't think that it is that unreasonable as the Goa'uld have made some pretty major strides both technologically and physically since the beginning of the series. |
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| JC1 |
Jan 18th 2004, 4:17 PM
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#12
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Captain Group: Members Posts: 950 Joined: January 13th 2003 From: Dublin, Ireland Member No.: 342 Gender: Male |
How could 2 ships be a lot for any goa'uld, at any time. The Goa'uld have been around for 1000's of years and have been fighting each other all that time. They'd have to have a lot more than 2 ships. Its hard to believe that to a system lord like Apophis the loss of 2 ships is a crippling blow. Also, by the time of 'Fair Game' SG1 hadn't killed any system lords. They did kill Seth and Hathor in the 2 previos episodes, but its unlikely that the average Goa'uld fleet size would increase by a factor of 8 in 2 episodes. Its unlikely it would increase by that much in a year, also. This post has been edited by JC1: Jan 18th 2004, 4:18 PM |
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| Raz |
Jan 18th 2004, 4:19 PM
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#13
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Colonel Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male |
Thats the point I've been trying to make!! Thats the whole point of this topic but everyone seems to be defying it? Its obvious its a writers error? Unless someone has a REALLY good explanation. |
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| WMCoolmon |
Jan 18th 2004, 4:47 PM
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#14
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Second Lieutenant Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: July 15th 2003 Member No.: 2,031 |
Consider that in Children of the Gods, less than 10 warriors managed to do lots of damage to his fighting forces without taking a single casualty. Like you said, everyone else he's been fighting has been around for thousands of years...he knows they will be roughly on par with his forces. Also consider he was sending loads of Jaffa through the Stargate, yet none of them reported back. The iris seems to have been a new idea; no one else had one until around season 7, I think. He probably figured they'd all died in battle. Edited: Apophis was coming himself. His son was coming too, and so was Klorel, who was presumeably his second-in-command. Wouldn't he bring the absolute best troops he had to offer to stay alive? No sense getting his head shot off.If the head of any country was with an invading force, wouldn't those troops be the absolute best that country had to offer? Or would he take less experienced troops and increase the risk getting his head shot off? Finally, I said this but no-one has refuted it...Bra'tac, Apophis' first prime, thought that Earth had spacegoing warships. Bra'tac has had closer experience with the Tau'ri than Apophis himself. If he was overestimating their space power that much, well, how accurate could Apophis' knowledge be? This post has been edited by WMCoolmon: Jan 18th 2004, 4:52 PM |
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| JC1 |
Jan 18th 2004, 5:01 PM
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#15
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Captain Group: Members Posts: 950 Joined: January 13th 2003 From: Dublin, Ireland Member No.: 342 Gender: Male |
After Apophis lost his 2 ships to Earth, I think Bratac siad he lost his rank of system lord. The system lords wouldn't support his attack on Earth anyway. Other system lords such as Heru'ur and Kronos, enemies of Apophis, probably immediatly attacked his remaining forces. Apophis never expected to be lose to Earth and was unprepared for a full attack by the other system lords and as a result suffered heavy losses and was eventually defeated by Sokar. |
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| SyStEm_LoRd |
Jan 18th 2004, 10:49 PM
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#16
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Major  Group: Members Posts: 1,208 Joined: February 5th 2003 From: Australia, Whyalla, SA Member No.: 552 Gender: Male |
that was towards the start of the series maybe there was alot more system lords. and at this time there is still welli can only remember 3-4 been mentioned system lords left. they used all there forces to take down anubis ship. and there was only 6 mothers ships!
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| JC1 |
Jan 18th 2004, 10:54 PM
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#17
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Captain Group: Members Posts: 950 Joined: January 13th 2003 From: Dublin, Ireland Member No.: 342 Gender: Male |
The 6 ships that destroyed Anubis' mothership wasn't the entire force of the system lords. Each system lord probably sent 1 or 2 ships each, while the rest of their fleets defended their territories. |
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| SyStEm_LoRd |
Jan 19th 2004, 1:03 AM
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#18
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Major Group: Members Posts: 1,208 Joined: February 5th 2003 From: Australia, Whyalla, SA Member No.: 552 Gender: Male |
well when they attacked at the end of season 6, Yu said i now command the collective forces of the system lords rara. so after he lost that battle, we next see them collective forces of system lords in 7-02 and there is only 6 ships left
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| Raz |
Jan 19th 2004, 1:11 AM
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#19
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Colonel Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male |
In Avenger how come Ba'al took the oppportunity to attack other Goa'uld cos he had more ships? I though too that they were the collective forces of the system lords yet after destroying Anubis, surely he didn't keep them?
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| WMCoolmon |
Jan 19th 2004, 1:24 AM
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#20
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Second Lieutenant Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: July 15th 2003 Member No.: 2,031 |
Ba'al just had more ships than the other System Lords at the time, it doesn't mean he kept the ships.
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| Raz |
Jan 19th 2004, 2:11 AM
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#21
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Colonel Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male |
Well if Ba'al was almighty and powerful then he could have taken Anubis out by himself after getting the co-ordinates for Kelowna with his own fleet rather than trust Lord Yu's first prime.
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| WMCoolmon |
Jan 19th 2004, 4:01 AM
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#22
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Second Lieutenant Group: Members Posts: 577 Joined: July 15th 2003 Member No.: 2,031 |
Why risk your own ships when you can risk someone else's?
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| Raz |
Jan 19th 2004, 6:45 AM
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#23
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Colonel Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: February 18th 2003 From: North-East England, UK Member No.: 726 Gender: Male |
Because then he could have wiped out Yu's ships aswell if he had called them there. Then he would have been able to take over Yu's domain. Especially at his weakened mental state.
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| Aesir |
Jan 19th 2004, 11:21 AM
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#24
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Major General Group: Members Posts: 4,404 Joined: June 14th 2003 From: United Kingdom Member No.: 1,811 Gender: Male |
Unless some System Lords have died or have been removed from power without our knowledge, then the current System Lords are: Ba'al, Yu, Kali, Bastet, Morrigan, Svarog, Olokun... can't think of anymore right now. The ships that attacked Anubis' mothership clearly wasn't the entire fleet of all the System Lords combined - that would mean that some System Lords didn't even have any ships 
The fact that only 6 ships were sent does seem really odd and in reality each System Lord would almost definitely have more than 6 ships each and could have done the same thing... I think the point they were trying to make was that it was a combined effort... they do seem gotten confused on the numbers however. I think this whole thing with losing two ships making a huge dent in Apophis' fleet might have just been something that they later forgot about when they wanted to change things around. We learn in 'Fair Game' that the System Lords are capable of launching an attack 100 times greater than that which Apophis did. That would mean they would probably have to have AT LEAST 200 Ha'taks between them. We know that there are currently around 7 System Lords, so that means they must have on average a minimum of 28 ships each. Of course, a lot could have changed since then but it's just a guide. |
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