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> 415 - Outcast
Rating  4
Arcady
post Feb 1st 2008, 7:24 PM
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Season 4, Episode 15 - Outcast
Air date: February 1, 2008

After learning of his father's death, Sheppard becomes embroiled in a covert experiment when he returns to Earth.

Episode Guide | Spoilers | Teaser

(This topic is for people who have seen the episode to discuss it. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read this topic.)
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Reignfire
post Feb 2nd 2008, 12:45 AM
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Some improvement from last week's ep, but not much.

Something that bugged me: When the Replicator first escaped, it looked like he was ripping out the security guards' throats, but there's no visible injuries when he pulled away. Not that I expected blood and guts, but they could have had better editing/camera angle.

The whole family problems thing felt too much like the whole Jacob/Sam/Sam's brother family thing (but that could be because I just watched the Seth episode the other day so it's fresh in my mind). I realize families can have there problems, but it still felt too similar for some reason. Also, why did Sheppard have to go to his sister for information, endangering her, rather than going through his own resources like the SGC?

I loved watching Ronon stock up at the buffet: "This is free, right?" laugh.gif
Also, It was nice to see the writers let Dr. Lee do something right.

A few unexpected things:
I was surprised to see Kari Wuhrer, I didn't recognize her at first without the red hair. As a guest star, I was expecting a larger role for her.
Also, Bates' return threw me. Honestly, I wasn't expecting to ever see him again.

This post has been edited by Reignfire: Feb 2nd 2008, 12:47 AM
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JTMAG1
post Feb 2nd 2008, 2:10 AM
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Sheppard's sister? Do you mean his exwife? The reason he went to her was for his own character developement.

Was it vacation time? The only regular in the last two weeks was sheppard. I liked seeing Bates, and the fact that they advised, there is life after Atlantis. I was thinking about Bates recently after watching The Siege.

The Ronan line at the Buffet was priceless.

Since when can replicators only replicate out of 1 material?

When John spoke with Teyla during 'Sateda' I thought he insinuated that he didnt have any family, not that he had an estranged relationships dry.gif.

I didn't care too much for this episode. Why make up a replicator plot line on Earth when we have the RepliWeir thing going on...
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IndyJan
post Feb 2nd 2008, 3:09 AM
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I was surprised that this story concept came from Joe.

Good things:
1. Dr. Lee and doing something correct.
2. Seeing Bates, I thought he was long gone. At least now there is someone with military experience, gate travel, working against the Wraith and Replicators in the IOA.
3. Seeing character development of John. I don't remember ever knowing that he had been married, or had a brother. Of course he had to have had a father and mother, but I got the feeling they were dead. So it was nice to see something there. As far as having a feeling of Seth, only the very end, IMO.
4. Rodney trying to make an attempt to think about someone else.
5. Episode not being about Rodney.
6. Ronon and the comment about the food, and just stuffing his plate! biggrin.gif
7. Remembering the virtual reality thing to put Ava into, since she truly did help them.

Bad things:
1. Once again Sam was an afterthought.
2. Was Teyla absent due to maternity leave?
3. Not an Atlantis episode, furthering the story.

All in all, I did enjoy it. Outcast, for the replicators, but also a play on words for John with his family. It was a nice touch for his brother to tell John that their father always regretted everything.

It took me awhile to place the ex-wife, Sliders. I didn't like her on Sliders, but I did in this small part.
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Revan
post Feb 2nd 2008, 5:17 AM
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"Re-entry's a bitch."

I liked this episode. There wasn't a huge amount of action, but I thought the storyline was thoughtful and interesting.

Blades of Glory... poor Ronon.

We knew Shep was married before, but we didn't know about the brother, or that his mother was already dead.
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Reignfire
post Feb 2nd 2008, 6:47 AM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Feb 2nd 2008, 1:10 AM) *

Sheppard's sister? Do you mean his exwife?

Yeah, that's who I meant. That just shows how much attention I was paying to this episode rolleyes.gif
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Invisible Painting
post Feb 2nd 2008, 9:33 AM
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QUOTE(Reignfire @ Feb 2nd 2008, 5:45 AM) *

Also, Bates' return threw me. Honestly, I wasn't expecting to ever see him again.

That was good yeah, I liked Bates, always kinda wondered what happened to him. He always had a valid point on the base in Atlantis when he was being the protagonist, good to see him used again. I didn't realise it was him first smile.gif

QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Feb 2nd 2008, 7:10 AM) *

Was it vacation time? The only regular in the last two weeks was sheppard.

Since when can replicators only replicate out of 1 material?

When John spoke with Teyla during 'Sateda' I thought he insinuated that he didnt have any family, not that he had an estranged relationships dry.gif.

Well Teyla has to take some time out for baby issues, Ronan the same (why he was absent last week, his wife/life partner (don't know which) was pregnant so they gave him a week off at one point.)

Replicators can't only use one material, not the MW ones anyway. But it's been shown that it is the key one (Small Victories). These replicators are different though and maybe they need it to start the process or something. The ones in Be All My Sins purposefully build their home over a rich supply of the stuff.

I think John meant he didn't have any family he was close to, no one who he could really turn to. I didn't expect Sheppard to come from a rich background, I just imagined more lower class/poorer background. I suppose saying his estrangement from them helped to kind of explain who he is and why he's the way he was (I.e. not upper class) but still I felt more emphasis needed to be put on it. But at least they still did go into it.

The producers/writers have also said that certain episodes like This Mortal Coil ect didn't have Carter because they wanted to save her for episodes with bigger roles, knowing that she'd only be doing 14 episodes. But here it probably wasn't as necessary for her to be in it, but then again I can't really imagine anyone else being the one telling John. But to have her in only one scene it would seem a little odd based on that frame of mind the writers are taking with her.


Episode thoughts anyway, firstly an incredible score (musical) imo, I thought the Replicator scenes musically were fantastic. Good to see. Good to see Dr. Lee again as well, I was wondering if we'd see him anytime soon.

The wife, while yes I'm glad we saw her, Flanigan acted and played the role very well...she didn't imo. No real emphasis on the role she was supposed to be playing, she just 'looked pretty' and said the lines. They should have found someone a bit different imo, maybe someone who seemed a bit more 'seasoned' if you get me. She was too happy and smiley towards him as well without going into her relationship with him from her perspective, we have no idea what her thoughts on the marriage or divorce were, or how she thinks of him now.

But I'm glad we got to see the wife, ever since we first heard he had one (Sunday for those that don't remember) I was hoping we'd find out more about her or see her, so I'm glad they pursued this. And I wouldn't mind seeing more of Sheppards personal life as well, it was good to get character development from him. He's a real character too.

But overall, a good episode, I liked it and don't mind seeing Earth based Atlantis's, they seem to do them well. But probably about 8/10. I'm also glad they dealt with the issue of what to do with the Replicator woman rather then just have her get killed or something convienient.

This post has been edited by Invisible Painting: Feb 2nd 2008, 9:36 AM
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Revan
post Feb 2nd 2008, 2:25 PM
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I think the point was that while the big-block replicators are capable of using basically any material to build themselves, the nanite replicators need neutronium.

I didn't expect the girl to be a replicator until near the end. Also, I didn't expect them to trap her in a virtual reality for all eternity... It's not exactly a great way to thank her. At least in TNG they had no choice with the holographic Dr. Moriarti, but in this... I mean she was corporeal... She had a life. They could have come to a better solution than making her utterly useless for the remainder of forever. sad.gif
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Invisible Painting
post Feb 2nd 2008, 3:34 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Feb 2nd 2008, 7:25 PM) *

I think the point was that while the big-block replicators are capable of using basically any material to build themselves, the nanite replicators need neutronium.

I didn't expect the girl to be a replicator until near the end. Also, I didn't expect them to trap her in a virtual reality for all eternity... It's not exactly a great way to thank her. At least in TNG they had no choice with the holographic Dr. Moriarti, but in this... I mean she was corporeal... She had a life. They could have come to a better solution than making her utterly useless for the remainder of forever. sad.gif

But this gives her free will in her own little world, and while she doesn't actually have free will. She thinks it, which is the best solution to her as she thinks she is happy. But it's true they can't just give her a job somewhere. But I liked the fact that they actually dealt with the issue, the show seems to be not hiding from making the 'hard choices' as much as it used to.
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Revan
post Feb 2nd 2008, 3:36 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Feb 2nd 2008, 3:34 PM) *

But this gives her free will in her own little world, and while she doesn't actually have free will. She thinks it, which is the best solution to her as she thinks she is happy. But it's true they can't just give her a job somewhere. But I liked the fact that they actually dealt with the issue, the show seems to be not hiding from making the 'hard choices' as much as it used to.

Being the good guys means taking risks. It means you either live or die with your principles... Putting a sentient life in a box somewhere isn't making the choice, it is a cop-out. Either she lives or dies... they chose neither. sad.gif
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Invisible Painting
post Feb 2nd 2008, 3:40 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Feb 2nd 2008, 8:36 PM) *

Being the good guys means taking risks. It means you either live or die with your principles... Putting a sentient life in a box somewhere isn't making the choice, it is a cop-out. Either she lives or dies... they chose neither. sad.gif

It's not a cop out, a cop out would be having the male Replicator happen to damage her beyond repair or something stupid that Double Jeopardy did. They chose an option which avoided the negatives of both the other options. It is a choice though, everything is a choice, but them putting a robot into the Matrix isn't going to make them question their principles.
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JTMAG1
post Feb 2nd 2008, 3:45 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Feb 2nd 2008, 9:33 AM) *

The wife, while yes I'm glad we saw her, Flanigan acted and played the role very well...she didn't imo. No real emphasis on the role she was supposed to be playing, she just 'looked pretty' and said the lines. They should have found someone a bit different imo, maybe someone who seemed a bit more 'seasoned' if you get me. She was too happy and smiley towards him as well without going into her relationship with him from her perspective, we have no idea what her thoughts on the marriage or divorce were, or how she thinks of him now.

There is a stigma that all divorces have to be bad, and feature lots of ill will, but maybe they had a good peaceful divorce. No arguing over money or the likes of that. She hadn't seen John for years, and it was his fathers funeral. Why would she have come if she were just going to harp on their divorce. Also, she stated that since she got her new position, she has had the same issues with her husband as John had with her, and now she understands a little bit.

I feel that she was developed a ton, and we just met her.
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Invisible Painting
post Feb 2nd 2008, 4:22 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Feb 2nd 2008, 8:45 PM) *

There is a stigma that all divorces have to be bad, and feature lots of ill will, but maybe they had a good peaceful divorce. No arguing over money or the likes of that. She hadn't seen John for years, and it was his fathers funeral. Why would she have come if she were just going to harp on their divorce. Also, she stated that since she got her new position, she has had the same issues with her husband as John had with her, and now she understands a little bit.

Yeah, I suppose so, but I just felt that Johns reaction was a little more weighted then hers. I'm not saying she needed to be confrontational or anything, my point was that we didn't see either way what her thoughts on him were, or if she even liked him. The way she was talking to him was the same as if he was just someone who worked with her or something, an acquaintance and the little intricacies that develop as you know someone just weren't present imo. I don't believe that they had a really weighted divorce though either, probably something that just happened and they both moved on with it.
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Revan
post Feb 2nd 2008, 5:55 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Feb 2nd 2008, 3:40 PM) *

It's not a cop out, a cop out would be having the male Replicator happen to damage her beyond repair or something stupid that Double Jeopardy did. They chose an option which avoided the negatives of both the other options. It is a choice though, everything is a choice, but them putting a robot into the Matrix isn't going to make them question their principles.

I am not saying it is a cop-out on the part of TPTB. I think they did a good job with the episode. I am saying it is a cop-out for the characters. They didn't have to destroy her, and they didn't have to deal with the risk of her continued existence. I expect more from people in their position...


QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Feb 2nd 2008, 4:22 PM) *

Yeah, I suppose so, but I just felt that Johns reaction was a little more weighted then hers. I'm not saying she needed to be confrontational or anything, my point was that we didn't see either way what her thoughts on him were, or if she even liked him. The way she was talking to him was the same as if he was just someone who worked with her or something, an acquaintance and the little intricacies that develop as you know someone just weren't present imo. I don't believe that they had a really weighted divorce though either, probably something that just happened and they both moved on with it.

Well he thought the divorce was his fault, and so did she. So his reaction would be more negative and more weighted with remorse or something similar.
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Invisible Painting
post Feb 2nd 2008, 7:11 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Feb 2nd 2008, 10:55 PM) *

Well he thought the divorce was his fault, and so did she. So his reaction would be more negative and more weighted with remorse or something similar.

But the point is there was NOTHING, nothing that made you think these people were married from her. If you go out with someone and get married and divorced, even if it's a really tidy divorce and both sides from it there will be something, some level of depth, the character would likely speak to the other person in a certain way or something. But she didn't offer anything, the performance she gave may as well have been if she was his neighbours sister or something, I wouldn't have bought that they were married if I didn't know already. I wasn't asking for much, but SOMETHING would have been good.

This post has been edited by Invisible Painting: Feb 2nd 2008, 7:13 PM
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Rogue Ashrak
post Feb 2nd 2008, 8:41 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Feb 3rd 2008, 9:55 AM) *

I am not saying it is a cop-out on the part of TPTB. I think they did a good job with the episode. I am saying it is a cop-out for the characters. They didn't have to destroy her, and they didn't have to deal with the risk of her continued existence. I expect more from people in their position...


Uh, like what? If you've got two options that are equally distasteful (Destroying someone who helped them, or letting them run around as a potential threat), why wouldn't you jump at a third option? This way Ava gets to continue "living" and she's no threat to Earth. It's a good compromise. Choosing the best option out of the choices given isn't a cop out, it's common sense.
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post Feb 3rd 2008, 4:34 AM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Feb 2nd 2008, 3:40 PM) *

It's not a cop out, a cop out would be having the male Replicator happen to damage her beyond repair or something stupid that Double Jeopardy did. They chose an option which avoided the negatives of both the other options. It is a choice though, everything is a choice, but them putting a robot into the Matrix isn't going to make them question their principles.


QUOTE(Rogue Ashrak @ Feb 2nd 2008, 8:41 PM) *

Uh, like what? If you've got two options that are equally distasteful (Destroying someone who helped them, or letting them run around as a potential threat), why wouldn't you jump at a third option? This way Ava gets to continue "living" and she's no threat to Earth. It's a good compromise. Choosing the best option out of the choices given isn't a cop out, it's common sense.


I have to agree. I don't see it as a cop out in any way. Yes, she helped them, this time, but she is a replicator and is still a possible threat to them. Dr. Poole had pretty much made her indestructible. I think putting her in a virtual reality, where she could live out her life, as much as possible, was the best option. I think shutting her down, as Reece was on SG1 (if they could have), would have been a cop out.

They realized that she had helped them, and this was the best option in allowing her a chance to live in some fashion.
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JTMAG1
post Feb 3rd 2008, 10:54 AM
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Not only did they allow her a chance to live, but a chance to help in the future as well.

Hopefully there isn't a power outage.
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post Feb 3rd 2008, 4:19 PM
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I don't know why, perhaps cuz it does actually make him look good (it's hard to admit, but it's true) but I really like seeing sheppard on Earth (in this episode and Miller's Crossing) but maybe it's just nice to see him not wearing his military uniform, and in some normal and decent looking earth clothes. (Seeing Ronon in the bullet proof vest, just made me laugh for some reason)

Good to see bates again, I liked how they explained his dissapperance with the promotion to IOA. I too thought he was long gone. As JTMAG1 said, it's good to know there is life after Atlantis. I recognized him right away, but he did seem a little different (I think his hair looked whiteish (older)) And how Sheppard told him he didn't have to refer to him as Sir anymore, good touch on the writer's parts.

Lee with the sun tan was funny, I liked his hawain style shirt, showed some casual-ness, and then after they lost track of the replicator, he changed into a normal sgc uniform, that was a good idea, just to show that his vacation was over.

Dr. Poole (I am not sure that was his name, but I can't find it on imdb or wikipedia) When they got into teams of two and BAtes said 'your with me' I knew right then that he would knock out bates, and try to talk to the replicator (and most likely end up dead)...which was how it happened.

Were they really expecting a machine to re-emerge from the water, in the same spot he went in? I figured Sheppard would of just jumped in after him, or Ronon would of tried to shoot him out of the air.

Right from the begining, I had a feeling that Ava was a replicator (I assumed she didn't know her origins, and she would find out later, be crushed then turn on dr. poole)

When Lee suggested the volcano and terminator thing, and Sheppard got the idea, I knew they were going to use the beams to do something, but I figured they would of beamed the replicator up and then shot him into the sun, but I guess that wouldn't of made a cool effect....actually I guess it could of been the same effect if they 'pushed' the replicator forward into the sun, then he could burn up the same way. But oh well, it's all the same.

The virtual reality thing completely threw me off. When Sheppard dissappeared, I was like 'what the hell was that, that's not how the asgard beams work'

I was kinda amazed (in a bad way) that Sheppard left the wake, (and completely disregarded his family) to track the replicator. I know he had problems with his family, but I figured he would of stayed for a bit, or said good bye. I mean it was nice that he went to his brother at the end (he and his brother had problems too) But I think most of his problems were with his father, so he should of gone to the grave, or funeral.
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post Feb 3rd 2008, 8:48 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Feb 3rd 2008, 5:54 PM) *

Hopefully there isn't a power outage.


Why would that be a problem?( biggrin.gif ) She is literally stored in that device. It's not like you lose all your data from your hard-drive when you shut down your computer. 1.gif

Anyway, thought this was a great episode. Not only did the writers do a job well with the action going on in the episode, but they also helped with Sheppard's character development, and revisited a past story arc in a great manner. It was awesome to see some of Shep's closer people: former wife and brother. It was also very nice of them to include Doc Lee in the episode. He got a little sun burned though. whistling.gif

A nice 4/5 from me for this episode.
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Revan
post Feb 3rd 2008, 9:13 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Feb 3rd 2008, 8:48 PM) *

Why would that be a problem?( biggrin.gif ) She is literally stored in that device. It's not like you lose all your data from your hard-drive when you shut down your computer. 1.gif

Anyway, thought this was a great episode. Not only did the writers do a job well with the action going on in the episode, but they also helped with Sheppard's character development, and revisited a past story arc in a great manner. It was awesome to see some of Shep's closer people: former wife and brother. It was also very nice of them to include Doc Lee in the episode. He got a little sun burned though. whistling.gif

A nice 4/5 from me for this episode.

I thought unexpected power loss was a bad thing for computers... huh.gif

I liked how, without warning, they beamed him right out of his hotel room. As we have seen before, somehow, he is a ladies man. laugh.gif The x-wife was an interesting insight, but I thought her presence wasn't entirely necessary. I liked the brother-to-brother dynamic, though.
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post Feb 3rd 2008, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE(Ty_dA_maNn58 @ Feb 3rd 2008, 4:19 PM) *

I was kinda amazed (in a bad way) that Sheppard left the wake, (and completely disregarded his family) to track the replicator. I know he had problems with his family, but I figured he would of stayed for a bit, or said good bye. I mean it was nice that he went to his brother at the end (he and his brother had problems too) But I think most of his problems were with his father, so he should of gone to the grave, or funeral.


They showed John going into the house and looking at his father's casket. Ronon started to follow and turned around. There was a moment for John with his father. That was enough. With a replicator lose on Earth, of course, he had to leave. As far as his brother, yes they had problems because John didn't want to work for his dad, and his brother stayed and did. But the brother very nicely informed John that his father always regretted their breakup.

Yes, it was Doctor Richard Poole. I remember because I laughed at the name.

As far as Bates, his hair had grey in it, but I also think he had put on a little weight.
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post Feb 3rd 2008, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Feb 3rd 2008, 8:48 PM) *

Why would that be a problem?( biggrin.gif ) She is literally stored in that device. It's not like you lose all your data from your hard-drive when you shut down your computer. 1.gif

Anyway, thought this was a great episode. Not only did the writers do a job well with the action going on in the episode, but they also helped with Sheppard's character development, and revisited a past story arc in a great manner. It was awesome to see some of Shep's closer people: former wife and brother. It was also very nice of them to include Doc Lee in the episode. He got a little sun burned though. whistling.gif

A nice 4/5 from me for this episode.

Well, you don't typically lose harddrive information when unexpectedly losing power, but you can (thats one reason why we back up servers). That's not what I meant. The whole world is being driven by the processors, it would suck if the world just shut down on her.

QUOTE(Revan @ Feb 3rd 2008, 9:13 PM) *

I thought unexpected power loss was a bad thing for computers... huh.gif

I liked how, without warning, they beamed him right out of his hotel room. As we have seen before, somehow, he is a ladies man. laugh.gif The x-wife was an interesting insight, but I thought her presence wasn't entirely necessary. I liked the brother-to-brother dynamic, though.

The doctor being beamed out from his hotel room was funny to me, but you would think that they would warn you before just beaming you up to the ship. What if you aren't dressed?
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Revan
post Feb 4th 2008, 3:49 AM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Feb 3rd 2008, 11:53 PM) *

Well, you don't typically lose harddrive information when unexpectedly losing power, but you can (thats one reason why we back up servers). That's not what I meant. The whole world is being driven by the processors, it would suck if the world just shut down on her.

The doctor being beamed out from his hotel room was funny to me, but you would think that they would warn you before just beaming you up to the ship. What if you aren't dressed?

They were using the same system that the Aurora used, though I can't think where they actually found those pods... I, for one, do not recall them acquiring new VR stasis pods. Those things last a long damn time... I doubt they would have a problem with stability... Though, of course, they did create their own world, and as with most human attempts at hacking alien tech, it could go ass-up pretty easily.

Then, unless you are very secure, everybody would be very embarassed and apologetic.
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