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Invisible Painting
post Jan 27th 2008, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 28th 2008, 4:24 AM) *

I've no idea of what you are trying to say here,

You were discussing the reasons the writers chose to bring Jewel Staite on the show. I.e. to have a young attractive female on the show.

We were discussing what plot reasons why the character of Jennifer Keller was on Atlantis, I.e. because she proved herself in the job before hand, and due to her taking Carson's responsibilities on well it was decided by the IOA to leave her in command.
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seymour
post Jan 28th 2008, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 27th 2008, 11:53 PM) *

You were discussing the reasons the writers chose to bring Jewel Staite on the show. I.e. to have a young attractive female on the show.

We were discussing what plot reasons why the character of Jennifer Keller was on Atlantis, I.e. because she proved herself in the job before hand, and due to her taking Carson's responsibilities on well it was decided by the IOA to leave her in command.


OK now I get you.
We're all speculating!
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 28th 2008, 2:37 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 29th 2008, 3:04 AM) *


OK now I get you.
We're all speculating!


Well duh. Although I'd call it more than mere speculation. Observe:

1. We know the IOA approves the people for all these posistions
2. We Know that Keller is still the CMO of Atlantis
3. Ergo, they must have approved it.

Granted, us stating their reasons as to why they approved it would be speculation, but that's not the issue here now is it?
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seymour
post Jan 29th 2008, 7:59 PM
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QUOTE(Rogue Ashrak @ Jan 28th 2008, 2:37 PM) *

Well duh. Although I'd call it more than mere speculation. Observe:

1. We know the IOA approves the people for all these posistions
2. We Know that Keller is still the CMO of Atlantis
3. Ergo, they must have approved it.

Granted, us stating their reasons as to why they approved it would be speculation, but that's not the issue here now is it?

That's an easy game to play

1. We know the IOA approves the people for all these positions.
2. We know Keller's did not want to be in charge and did not want the job of CMO of Atlantis.
3. Ergo, an IOA application/approval process was not held.
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 29th 2008, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 12:59 AM) *

That's an easy game to play

1. We know the IOA approves the people for all these positions.
2. We know Keller's did not want to be in charge and did not want the job of CMO of Atlantis.
3. Ergo, an IOA application/approval process was not held.

She was nervous about it but she may have changed her mind since First Strike and wanted the position.
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seymour
post Jan 30th 2008, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 29th 2008, 10:06 PM) *

She was nervous about it but she may have changed her mind since First Strike and wanted the position.

Then we should/would (?) have seen her resolve onscreen which would be far better character and plot development for her than snogging with Ronin.

My speculation would be that at any hypothetical IOA approval process for Atlantis's new CMO, the IOA would conclude...
If it looks like a junior resident
If it talks like a junior resident
It's a junior resident.
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 30th 2008, 2:18 AM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 4:33 PM) *

Then we should/would (?) have seen her resolve onscreen which would be far better character and plot development for her than snogging with Ronin.

My speculation would be that at any hypothetical IOA approval process for Atlantis's new CMO, the IOA would conclude...
If it looks like a junior resident
If it talks like a junior resident
It's a junior resident.


But we know they didn't conclude that, because, she' still the CMO. And btw the IOA approval process isn't hypothetical, Sam Carter had to go through it to get the Atlantis leadership gig. The only hypothetical part here is your theory of what happened at that process, which by the facts given, has been proven false.

This post has been edited by Rogue Ashrak: Jan 30th 2008, 2:20 AM
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seymour
post Jan 30th 2008, 9:53 AM
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QUOTE(Rogue Ashrak @ Jan 30th 2008, 2:18 AM) *

But we know they didn't conclude that, because, she' still the CMO. And btw the IOA approval process isn't hypothetical, Sam Carter had to go through it to get the Atlantis leadership gig. The only hypothetical part here is your theory of what happened at that process, which by the facts given, has been proven false.


The IOA approval process for Atlantis posts isn't hypothetical - agreed. I phrased that ambiguously.

What is hypothetical in all our speculations is whether Keller (the junior resident) would have applied for the post of CMO and been approved by the IOA. As you wrote, we learned Carter went through the process we have heard NOTHING about Keller going through it.

It's pretty clear that neither of us is going to be persuaded by each other's POV.

Can anyone remember whether Keller actually worked out that there was no medical emergency?
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KillerMarv
post Jan 30th 2008, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 4:53 PM) *

The IOA approval process for Atlantis posts isn't hypothetical - agreed. I phrased that ambiguously.

What is hypothetical in all our speculations is whether Keller (the junior resident) would have applied for the post of CMO and been approved by the IOA. As you wrote, we learned Carter went through the process we have heard NOTHING about Keller going through it.

It's pretty clear that neither of us is going to be persuaded by each other's POV.

Can anyone remember whether Keller actually worked out that there was no medical emergency?


I think I remember it more like this though: Keller was put in the position of CMO only temporary by the IOA, since she was the best among Beckett's subordinates. After the events in First Strike, she, along with Carter were interviewed by the IOA, and the full CMO position was given to her, along with Carter's leadership position. That is how I remember it. unsure.gif
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JTMAG1
post Jan 30th 2008, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 9:53 AM) *

The IOA approval process for Atlantis posts isn't hypothetical - agreed. I phrased that ambiguously.

What is hypothetical in all our speculations is whether Keller (the junior resident) would have applied for the post of CMO and been approved by the IOA. As you wrote, we learned Carter went through the process we have heard NOTHING about Keller going through it.

It's pretty clear that neither of us is going to be persuaded by each other's POV.

Can anyone remember whether Keller actually worked out that there was no medical emergency?

Your refusal to accept that the IOA had to approve Kellar in that position is just silly. If we know that the IOA have to approve those high positions. She is in the postition, so she got approved.

No, Keller and and Ronan never worked out that that there was no medical emergency, which is strange, because they did not clean up the mess they made, when previously she was talking about preparing for patients.
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 30th 2008, 12:55 PM
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It may have been possible she was put on some form of trial period to see how she'd do, and then she did well so they decided to keep her. But yes the fact that she's there and in charge says they did approve her, it's just how/why (which again, because she's good) that you have to work out.
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seymour
post Jan 30th 2008, 2:41 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 30th 2008, 11:44 AM) *

Your refusal to accept that the IOA had to approve Kellar in that position is just silly. If we know that the IOA have to approve those high positions. She is in the postition, so she got approved.

No, Keller and and Ronan never worked out that that there was no medical emergency, which is strange, because they did not clean up the mess they made, when previously she was talking about preparing for patients.


First Strike

"WEIR: Doctor Keller. How is my Head of Medicine?
KELLER: Uh, *Acting* Head of Medicine, actually, and that's kinda what I wanted to talk to you about.
WEIR: What's up?
KELLER: Uh, I need to be replaced.
WEIR: Excuse me?
KELLER: Look, after Carson ...... someone had to step up and take over, and I'm glad to help out, don't get me wrong, but I'm not qualified to run a department of this size. You you need someone ... better.
WEIR: Everyone down there says you're doing great.
KELLER: Well, (a) I'm not sure that's true, and (b) it's been pretty smooth sailing over the last few weeks. I think I've been lucky.
WEIR: Well, the IOA are reviewing candidates but, to be honest, they're not that great at making quick decisions.
KELLER: Yeah. So, a week? Two weeks?...."

Other than Weir's injuries (which Rodney "cured") how many medical emergencies has Weir solved? The childhood plague was not really a medical miracle on her part. So maybe the writers should do a juicy "medicine show" so she can shine a little more.

Yeah, I was very surprised that Keller did not spend more time thinking and planning for the supposed medical emergency- did she not have access to a computer/medical files to do some strategizing?
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post Jan 30th 2008, 3:03 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 9:41 PM) *

First Strike

"WEIR: Doctor Keller. How is my Head of Medicine?
KELLER: Uh, *Acting* Head of Medicine, actually, and that's kinda what I wanted to talk to you about.
WEIR: What's up?
KELLER: Uh, I need to be replaced.
WEIR: Excuse me?
KELLER: Look, after Carson ...... someone had to step up and take over, and I'm glad to help out, don't get me wrong, but I'm not qualified to run a department of this size. You you need someone ... better.
WEIR: Everyone down there says you're doing great.
KELLER: Well, (a) I'm not sure that's true, and (b) it's been pretty smooth sailing over the last few weeks. I think I've been lucky.
WEIR: Well, the IOA are reviewing candidates but, to be honest, they're not that great at making quick decisions.
KELLER: Yeah. So, a week? Two weeks?...."

Other than Weir's injuries (which Rodney "cured") how many medical emergencies has Weir solved? The childhood plague was not really a medical miracle on her part. So maybe the writers should do a juicy "medicine show" so she can shine a little more.

Yeah, I was very surprised that Keller did not spend more time thinking and planning for the supposed medical emergency- did she not have access to a computer/medical files to do some strategizing?


Exactly as I have posted earlier, this confirms it. Keller took the position of CMO temporarily before the IOA made up their mind as to who will take the full job. Since enough time has passed since then, and the IOA as the staff of Atlantis were pleased with her work, they selected her. Or are we questioning something else? smile.gif

This post has been edited by KillerMarv: Jan 30th 2008, 3:03 PM
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post Jan 30th 2008, 3:19 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 30th 2008, 8:03 PM) *

Exactly as I have posted earlier, this confirms it. Keller took the position of CMO temporarily before the IOA made up their mind as to who will take the full job. Since enough time has passed since then, and the IOA as the staff of Atlantis were pleased with her work, they selected her. Or are we questioning something else? smile.gif

But we don't know that the IOA approve these positions, in fact I don't think they do. Did the IOA interview and approve McKay, Zelenka, Sheppard, Lorne? I don't think they did, as McKay and Sheppard had never met Woolsey before season 3.

As is my understanding, the IOA approves the expedition leader, and then it's up to the leader to recruit and approve personel for positions. Thats one of the key responsibilities of the expedtion leader. Now if the IOA, disagree with one of the leaders appoitments, they may put pressure on the expedition leader to change the appointment, but I don't think every key position in Atlantis is up for IOA interview & approval.

Keller was given the job of CMO of Atlantis by Weir. Carter then took over, and decided it was unnecceasry to make any changes so Keller remained as CMO. IOA gave Carter the position of leader to make these sorts of decisions. For them to come in, and have to approve key positions is micro managing, and undermining Carter command.
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seymour
post Jan 30th 2008, 3:24 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 30th 2008, 3:03 PM) *

Exactly as I have posted earlier, this confirms it. Keller took the position of CMO temporarily before the IOA made up their mind as to who will take the full job. Since enough time has passed since then, and the IOA as the staff of Atlantis were pleased with her work, they selected her. Or are we questioning something else? smile.gif

Keller's natural leadership qualities?

QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 2:41 PM) *

First StrikeWEIR: Well, the IOA are reviewing candidates but, to be honest, they're not that great at making quick decisions.


We all know the IOA will decided WHAT THE PRODUCERS TELL THEM TO DECIDE. The producers want Keller as CMO, then she's CMO even those it is obvious that the character as she is written would not survive one episode of ER!

This post has been edited by seymour: Jan 30th 2008, 3:26 PM
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post Jan 30th 2008, 3:28 PM
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Well, you are using the word "key". And I would take that to mean, imortant. And the department heads are important positions. Off the top of my head, there are only 3. Medicine (Keller), security (sheppard) and science (Mckay). Carter is in charge and that seems to be working well. Thats only 4 positions for them to moniter.

Even Weir has to ask for permission to bring Sheppard during 'Rising'
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post Jan 30th 2008, 3:31 PM
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QUOTE(JC1 @ Jan 30th 2008, 10:19 PM) *

But we don't know that the IOA approve these positions, in fact I don't think they do. Did the IOA interview and approve McKay, Zelenka, Sheppard, Lorne? I don't think they did, as McKay and Sheppard had never met Woolsey before season 3.


Sheppard was directly approved by Jack. Lorne was probably assigned by the Sumner. The IOA is not only Woolsey. They could have met with members of the IOA and not Woolsey. 1.gif

QUOTE(JC1 @ Jan 30th 2008, 10:19 PM) *

As is my understanding, the IOA approves the expedition leader, and then it's up to the leader to recruit and approve personel for positions. Thats one of the key responsibilities of the expedtion leader. Now if the IOA, disagree with one of the leaders appoitments, they may put pressure on the expedition leader to change the appointment, but I don't think every key position in Atlantis is up for IOA interview & approval.


I guess that makes sense. Guess Weir appointed Keller, but the IOA expected to see if she completes her duties well.

QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 10:24 PM) *

Keller's natural leadership qualities?
We all know the IOA will decided WHAT THE PRODUCERS TELL THEM TO DECIDE.


What about her natural leadership qualities? She just had some stage fright. That doesn't mean she doesn't have any skills whatsoever. We should give her more time before we make this assumption.
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post Jan 30th 2008, 4:07 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 30th 2008, 8:28 PM) *

Well, you are using the word "key". And I would take that to mean, imortant. And the department heads are important positions. Off the top of my head, there are only 3. Medicine (Keller), security (sheppard) and science (Mckay). Carter is in charge and that seems to be working well. Thats only 4 positions for them to moniter.

Even Weir has to ask for permission to bring Sheppard during 'Rising'

I thought Lorne was head of Security, didn't he take over from Bates? And Zelenka said he was a department head. Either way theres no evidence that any of them were approved by the IOA. The only position we know for sure that the IOA approved was leader. If any other positions require IOA approval, that seems like micro managing in my opinion.

And Weir asked Sheppard to join the expedition without asking for permission. Sheppard said he'd think about it, so she then asked Jack to convince him. Then when the Landry wanted to take Sheppard of the expedition, it was Weir who stopped him, and insisted he be officialy given the position of military leader, not the IOA.

QUOTE
Sheppard was directly approved by Jack. Lorne was probably assigned by the Sumner. The IOA is not only Woolsey. They could have met with members of the IOA and not Woolsey


I thought the IOA was a panel made up of permanment members of which Woolsey is one.

QUOTE
I guess that makes sense. Guess Weir appointed Keller, but the IOA expected to see if she completes her duties well.


Again, Weir having to wait for IOA approval of her appointment is very undermining of her command. And the IOA are in another galaxy. There hardly in a position to judge if Keller is doing er job well. Thats what they have a leader for.
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post Jan 30th 2008, 5:01 PM
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QUOTE(JC1 @ Jan 30th 2008, 4:07 PM) *

Again, Weir having to wait for IOA approval of her appointment is very undermining of her command. And the IOA are in another galaxy. There hardly in a position to judge if Keller is doing er job well. Thats what they have a leader for.

That's why they do things like make status reports, and send Woosley to evaluate. Weir complained a lot of the IOA second guessing her and questioning her actions.
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post Jan 30th 2008, 5:04 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 30th 2008, 3:31 PM) *
What about her natural leadership qualities? She just had some stage fright. That doesn't mean she doesn't have any skills whatsoever. We should give her more time before we make this assumption.

I'm so glad Weir and Sheppard managed to hide any "stage fright" they experienced- guess that's part of the reason those characters are natural leaders.

No-one follows a whiny cry-baby.

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post Jan 30th 2008, 5:17 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 30th 2008, 5:04 PM) *

I'm so glad Weir and Sheppard managed to hide any "stage fright" they experienced- guess that's part of the reason those characters are natural leaders.

No-one follows a whiny cry-baby.

Weir did have stage fright, and said she was nervous quite frequently. Sheppard on the other hand was a soldier who had been behind enemy lines, and under fire before.
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post Jan 30th 2008, 6:23 PM
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QUOTE(JC1 @ Jan 30th 2008, 9:07 PM) *

I thought Lorne was head of Security, didn't he take over from Bates? And Zelenka said he was a department head. Either way theres no evidence that any of them were approved by the IOA. The only position we know for sure that the IOA approved was leader. If any other positions require IOA approval, that seems like micro managing in my opinion.

And Weir asked Sheppard to join the expedition without asking for permission. Sheppard said he'd think about it, so she then asked Jack to convince him. Then when the Landry wanted to take Sheppard of the expedition, it was Weir who stopped him, and insisted he be officialy given the position of military leader, not the IOA.
I thought the IOA was a panel made up of permanment members of which Woolsey is one.
Again, Weir having to wait for IOA approval of her appointment is very undermining of her command. And the IOA are in another galaxy. There hardly in a position to judge if Keller is doing er job well. Thats what they have a leader for.

When the team went back to Earth during Intruder, the IOA looked over everything and either gave the green light or reassigned/made changes. They wanted to bring someone else in but Sheppard, they did not approve of him being commander but Weir managed to convince them. Even the decisions that were made on Atlantis by Weir ect were approved by the IOA, but given that they have weight in these decisions their opinions will go a long way to help secure someone a position. So if Weir, Sheppard ect want someone it is quite a big step to getting them.
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post Jan 30th 2008, 6:31 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Jan 31st 2008, 12:04 AM) *

I'm so glad Weir and Sheppard managed to hide any "stage fright" they experienced- guess that's part of the reason those characters are natural leaders.

No-one follows a whiny cry-baby.



QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 31st 2008, 12:17 AM) *

Weir did have stage fright, and said she was nervous quite frequently. Sheppard on the other hand was a soldier who had been behind enemy lines, and under fire before.


Sheppard had stage fright when it came to being sent to Atlantis. Remember his conversation with O'Neill on the helicopter. O'Neill noticed his reluctance to accepting the job, and gave him a deadline to deciding if he goes. And we see some more in Intruder, as Sheppard talks to Weir about his promotion, not sure if he is cut out for it.
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post Jan 30th 2008, 6:39 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 30th 2008, 5:17 PM) *

Weir did have stage fright, and said she was nervous quite frequently. Sheppard on the other hand was a soldier who had been behind enemy lines, and under fire before.

Weir was not a whiny cry-baby. Keller is.
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