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> 412 - Spoils of War
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 18th 2008, 9:48 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 19th 2008, 12:18 PM) *

The point is after three months women aren't capable of the point where they're compromising the team, hat comes later, that's where this debate comes from.


Yes, they ARE. Gyah! If she makes a decision to protect her baby instead of one of her fellow teammates, then it's compromising the team! It's not just about her physical ability it's her decision making process.

I'm sorry Invis if I sound ticked, (it's not aimed at you specifically, it's a just a general state of annoyance) but why is this so hard for people to understand?
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Dave312
post Jan 18th 2008, 10:32 PM
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I would have to agree with Rogue. It doesn't matter at point along the pregnancy Teyla is, she will still have that 'impaired' judgement. Its not like she has a desk job.
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JTMAG1
post Jan 18th 2008, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Jan 18th 2008, 9:00 PM) *

Now were we seeing one of the brute Wraith born or was that a clone? And would the mask have been left in the machine so it was easily accessible, or would it be grown?

I was really curious about that. The comment about the genetic material raised some questions in my mind. I also thought it was very strange for the mask to be in there. The only reason I can think of for it to be in there, is that it is organic and a necessary part of their survival. Otherwise it's just clothes and it's like a baby coming out of the womb with a hat.
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 19th 2008, 5:27 AM
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QUOTE(Rogue Ashrak @ Jan 19th 2008, 2:48 AM) *

Yes, they ARE. Gyah! If she makes a decision to protect her baby instead of one of her fellow teammates, then it's compromising the team! It's not just about her physical ability it's her decision making process.

I'm sorry Invis if I sound ticked, (it's not aimed at you specifically, it's a just a general state of annoyance) but why is this so hard for people to understand?

My point is that the decision to prioritise the baby first and put the team second came in SoW, not before then. She was really focussed on her job and the team then, her judgement wasn't impaired then. That's why I don't think Keller had a problem not telling anyone, and why she didn't specifically. The moment she realised that she had to change her priorities and was going to was the moment she agreed with Sheppard and was happy to be off the team. But before that she was acting fine.
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 19th 2008, 5:48 AM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 19th 2008, 9:27 PM) *

My point is that the decision to prioritise the baby first and put the team second came in SoW, not before then. She was really focussed on her job and the team then, her judgement wasn't impaired then. That's why I don't think Keller had a problem not telling anyone, and why she didn't specifically. The moment she realised that she had to change her priorities and was going to was the moment she agreed with Sheppard and was happy to be off the team. But before that she was acting fine.


Well yeah, but Shep couldn't sit around and wait for her to make that decision before he stepped in. Her little touch of self-revelation could've come at any time, even in the midst of a battle (which it actually did in this case), and it could have had disastrous consequences. In terms of military protocol, Shep did the right thing, and Teyla should have copped it sweet from the beginning.

This post has been edited by Rogue Ashrak: Jan 19th 2008, 5:49 AM
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lancelot2
post Jan 19th 2008, 10:35 AM
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i am personally a pro life believer i belive that as soon as a baby is concieved it is a little person so i'll put this question to those who think teyla should be allowed to go on dangerous missions, would you still feel the same way if the baby was 2 days old and she was taking it on missions? no you wouldn't would you? so imo she should not be allowed to put her baby and herself at risk whilst on missions unless it's totally
unavoidable.
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Dafmeister
post Jan 19th 2008, 4:47 PM
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Even doctors don't believe an embryo is true life until it is passed a certain stage of development. Going on a mission when she is three months pregnant is a totally different arguement to Teyla going on a mission with a two day old child.
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Dave312
post Jan 19th 2008, 6:20 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 20th 2008, 8:47 AM) *

Even doctors don't believe an embryo isn't life until it is passed a certain stage of development. Going on a mission when she is three months pregnant is a totally different arguement to Teyla going on a mission with a two day old child.


Double Negative? You don't the the word "don't".

I just re-watched this episode and noticed that Ronon said the the dead Wraith aboard the Hive were fed upon. I thought wraith weren't able to feed upon other wraith, hence why the Wraith wanted the retro-virus in the season 2 finale. What makes this even stranger is that Micheal should have known this fact, but he was still unaware they were going to betray Atlantis.
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 19th 2008, 6:27 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 20th 2008, 8:47 AM) *
Even doctors don't believe an embryo isn't life until it is passed a certain stage of development. Going on a mission when she is three months pregnant is a totally different arguement to Teyla going on a mission with a two day old child.

Not if she decides to protect that two-day old child at the expense of not risking herself to help her teammates to complete a mission. She can do that at ANY stage of the pregnancy.

This post has been edited by Rogue Ashrak: Jan 19th 2008, 6:27 PM
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Dafmeister
post Jan 19th 2008, 6:51 PM
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QUOTE(Dave312 @ Jan 19th 2008, 11:20 PM) *
Double Negative? You don't the the word "don't".
You don't need two "the" in the sentence, you need a "need" though. wink.gif


QUOTE
I just re-watched this episode and noticed that Ronon said the the dead Wraith aboard the Hive were fed upon. I thought wraith weren't able to feed upon other wraith, hence why the Wraith wanted the retro-virus in the season 2 finale. What makes this even stranger is that Micheal should have known this fact, but he was still unaware they were going to betray Atlantis.
The Wraith in 'The Defiant One' fed on other Wraith. I don't see any reason why they can't, the Wraith are a living creature and so should be able to be fed upon.
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 19th 2008, 9:26 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 19th 2008, 11:51 PM) *

The Wraith in 'The Defiant One' fed on other Wraith. I don't see any reason why they can't, the Wraith are a living creature and so should be able to be fed upon.

It's been mentioned in more then a few episodes, Wraith can feed off other Wraith. I'm guessing they only do it as a last resort though, we haven't seen if it has a different effect on Wraith eating other Wraith as opposed to humans though. In this episode the queen seemed quite keen to eat 'Todd', I'm guessing humans are just easier given it's evolutionary what they've grown up eating.
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Dave312
post Jan 19th 2008, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 20th 2008, 1:26 PM) *

It's been mentioned in more then a few episodes, Wraith can feed off other Wraith. I'm guessing they only do it as a last resort though, we haven't seen if it has a different effect on Wraith eating other Wraith as opposed to humans though. In this episode the queen seemed quite keen to eat 'Todd', I'm guessing humans are just easier given it's evolutionary what they've grown up eating.


Its not so much the problem with wraith feeding on other wraith but rather what really was the point in getting the retro-virus? In the season 2 finale Micheal was unaware of the wraith's intentions to betray Atlantis. So all he really wanted was the retro-virus. But if he can feed on Wraith anyway what was the point really?
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 19th 2008, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE(Dave312 @ Jan 20th 2008, 3:08 AM) *

Its not so much the problem with wraith feeding on other wraith but rather what really was the point in getting the retro-virus? In the season 2 finale Micheal was unaware of the wraith's intentions to betray Atlantis. So all he really wanted was the retro-virus. But if he can feed on Wraith anyway what was the point really?

Again, I think maybe it doesn't have as strong an effect feeding off other Wraith, or there is some difference in eating other Wraith, or else as you said there would. Given that very few Wraith have eaten off other Wraith, there must be some difference in doing it.
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Joda
post Jan 19th 2008, 10:26 PM
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Also, after that Hive got gassed in the beginning of Season 3, none of the turned crew remembered being Wraith.

If Mike gasses a Hive, he can just walk in, take his fill, meet no resistance, and get a free ride.
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KillerMarv
post Jan 20th 2008, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 19th 2008, 11:47 PM) *

Even doctors don't believe an embryo is true life until it is passed a certain stage of development. Going on a mission when she is three months pregnant is a totally different arguement to Teyla going on a mission with a two day old child.


I do believe that a 3 month fetus is quite well developed. I don't know what doctors would say about it being true life or not and frankly I wouldn't care.

As Janos posted in the Quarantine thread just moments ago, the first trimester (0-12 weeks) is also important. That is when rapid hormonal changes take place. The quantity of instability is quite high. I would say that it's the most unstable period during pregnancy. Here is a link:

Pregnancy
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lancelot2
post Jan 20th 2008, 1:06 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 19th 2008, 10:47 PM) *

Even doctors don't believe an embryo is true life until it is passed a certain stage of development. Going on a mission when she is three months pregnant is a totally different arguement to Teyla going on a mission with a two day old child.

i'm not a doctor as i've said it is my belief that even a day old embryo is as much a child as a 2 day old child
you are entitled to your beliefs but those are mine.

QUOTE(Dave312 @ Jan 20th 2008, 4:08 AM) *

Its not so much the problem with wraith feeding on other wraith but rather what really was the point in getting the retro-virus? In the season 2 finale Micheal was unaware of the wraith's intentions to betray Atlantis. So all he really wanted was the retro-virus. But if he can feed on Wraith anyway what was the point really?

i belive they wanted the retro-virus so that they could disorientate the enemy before feeding off of them as the retro-virus strips them of their memory as well as turning them into humans.
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JTMAG1
post Jan 20th 2008, 1:26 PM
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QUOTE(Dave312 @ Jan 19th 2008, 10:08 PM) *

Its not so much the problem with wraith feeding on other wraith but rather what really was the point in getting the retro-virus? In the season 2 finale Micheal was unaware of the wraith's intentions to betray Atlantis. So all he really wanted was the retro-virus. But if he can feed on Wraith anyway what was the point really?



QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 19th 2008, 10:11 PM) *

Again, I think maybe it doesn't have as strong an effect feeding off other Wraith, or there is some difference in eating other Wraith, or else as you said there would. Given that very few Wraith have eaten off other Wraith, there must be some difference in doing it.

If they used the retro-virus to change the some Wraith into humans, they wouldn't have to worry about their food trying to feed on them. As well as reducing the number of other Wraith in the galaxy to go against.

We see in submersion that the queen was able to survive for thousands of years having fed on her crew. I bet their regenerative ability help a lot.
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Dafmeister
post Jan 20th 2008, 1:37 PM
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QUOTE(lancelot2 @ Jan 20th 2008, 6:06 PM) *
i'm not a doctor as i've said it is my belief that even a day old embryo is as much a child as a 2 day old child
Except, it is not. A two day old child is a human being in every sense of the word, a one day old embryo is barely a collection of cells. It is the beginning of Human life but it is not Human life.
I am prolife the same as you and believe abortion is only acceptable when the life of the mother is in danger but that doesn't mean I believe a sperm an egg form a Human life from the very instant of conception, that is just absurd.
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KillerMarv
post Jan 20th 2008, 2:06 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 20th 2008, 8:37 PM) *

Except, it is not. A two day old child is a human being in every sense of the word, a one day old embryo is barely a collection of cells. It is the beginning of Human life but it is not Human life.
I am prolife the same as you and believe abortion is only acceptable when the life of the mother is in danger but that doesn't mean I believe a sperm an egg form a Human life from the very instant of conception, that is just absurd.


Yes, that is an interesting argument you're making, and it was good that you made this post, people were probably starting to believe you're not against abortion at all. 1.gif

Still, a one-day embryo may not be completely-formed human life, but it is life nonetheless.
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 20th 2008, 4:12 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 20th 2008, 7:06 PM) *

Still, a one-day embryo may not be completely-formed human life, but it is life nonetheless.

Daf made a good argument though imo, it isn't alive at that point, just forming to be alive. Kind of like if you put bread in a toaster for 5 seconds it's not toast.

This post has been edited by Invisible Painting: Jan 20th 2008, 4:12 PM
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KillerMarv
post Jan 20th 2008, 4:26 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 20th 2008, 11:12 PM) *

Daf made a good argument though imo, it isn't alive at that point, just forming to be alive. Kind of like if you put bread in a toaster for 5 seconds it's not toast.


So, you disagree that the presence of live cells is life? Than, what is bacteria? Sure, the new life inside the mom can't sustain itself on its own, but we know of many parasitic lifeforms that can't sustain themselves, and they are still life. 1.gif

And no, I'm not comparing a baby with a parasite, but it was the only parallel I could come up with, although... whistling.gif
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Revan
post Jan 20th 2008, 7:36 PM
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QUOTE(Dave312 @ Jan 19th 2008, 10:08 PM) *

Its not so much the problem with wraith feeding on other wraith but rather what really was the point in getting the retro-virus? In the season 2 finale Micheal was unaware of the wraith's intentions to betray Atlantis. So all he really wanted was the retro-virus. But if he can feed on Wraith anyway what was the point really?

They couldn't really fly their ship anymore if they were human, and they wouldn't be as strong.

Given how humans treat most life on this planet of ours, I don't think anybody can really say they are pro-life, especially since I know hunters that consider themselves "pro-life." If you consider an embryonic collection of cells life, then shouldn't you consider every other life-form on this planet with the same compassion and consideration?
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Joda
post Jan 20th 2008, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 20th 2008, 4:26 PM) *

So, you disagree that the presence of live cells is life? Than, what is bacteria? Sure, the new life inside the mom can't sustain itself on its own, but we know of many parasitic lifeforms that can't sustain themselves, and they are still life. 1.gif

And no, I'm not comparing a baby with a parasite, but it was the only parallel I could come up with, although... whistling.gif


Dude, pre birth babies are totally parasites. Not a bad parasite mind you, but a parasite all the same.

And I agree with the "It may not be complex life, but life is life", that said, I think with overpopulation the way it is, if the mother chooses to abort, then frankly it is her choice.

Even after birth, parents are responsible for choosing for their children, for the good of the child. Why should it be any different before birth?

If you're a doctor, and you have a wounded paitent that you can't do anything for, sometimes pulling the plug is the most humane thing to do. Would you rather your patient suffered until death? Or would you feel better about easing that passage?

Same thing as a parent, or expectant parent, if you can't care for your child to be, if that child is going to grow up in hell, tossed in a ophanage (or group/recieving home as they're called these days), totally unwanted and shunned, degraded... is abortion not more humane than subjecting an infant to that fate? I lived in group homes during my teen years, and it's no place for ANYONE, let alone an infant who can't care for itself, and that is not taking into account the overcrowding, and overburdened staff who work at places like that.

Now, that was all from a cold calculating point of view.

Emotionally, it is a different story, I wouldn't feel right terminating a life that I was responsible for creating, mind you that is because I've chosen to be responsible for my actions, including fathering a child that wasn't planned (No... I'm not going to be a dad anytime soon... I'm just prepared is all I'm saying... well, as much as anyone can be wink.gif)

Emotionally I don't like abortion, I think adoption is a better way (into a loving family, not a children services organisation). I knew someone once who had a child in her teen years, and she opted for adoption, which was nice, because the family had been unable to concieve on their own, so an accident turned into a blessing...
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 20th 2008, 11:57 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Jan 21st 2008, 12:36 AM) *

Given how humans treat most life on this planet of ours, I don't think anybody can really say they are pro-life, especially since I know hunters that consider themselves "pro-life." If you consider an embryonic collection of cells life, then shouldn't you consider every other life-form on this planet with the same compassion and consideration?

I think it's more an issue of what they care about, yeah they see donkeys or anything else (not that they hunt donkeys that much, but it was the first thing that came to my head!) as life. But they don't really care the same, it's 'less of an importance' apparently.

QUOTE(Joda @ Jan 21st 2008, 4:23 AM) *
Emotionally, it is a different story, I wouldn't feel right terminating a life that I was responsible for creating, mind you that is because I've chosen to be responsible for my actions, including fathering a child that wasn't planned (No... I'm not going to be a dad anytime soon... I'm just prepared is all I'm saying... well, as much as anyone can be )

Emotionally I don't like abortion, I think adoption is a better way (into a loving family, not a children services organisation). I knew someone once who had a child in her teen years, and she opted for adoption, which was nice, because the family had been unable to concieve on their own, so an accident turned into a blessing...

Yeah probably same, I'd likely given the choice make that decision if we didn't want the baby. But I wouldn't feel right aborting either.

This post has been edited by Invisible Painting: Jan 20th 2008, 11:57 PM
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