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> 412 - Spoils of War
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JTMAG1
post Jan 17th 2008, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE(Joda @ Jan 17th 2008, 8:02 AM) *

What if Carter took Teyla off active duty? Would it have been a sexist (read: man vs. woman) move then? Or would it have been the prudent thing to do? (Just asking as this arguement seems to have been explored fairly well)

Decent ep, it'd be nice though, if the good guys could grab more than one ZPM at a time once... then deplete one fully trying to escape or while enacting some hairbrain scheme... or keep a Wraith ship for a couple episodes before blowing it up... use it on a raid, then let it get toasted... I mean, I don't think we've got the facilities to properly repair the Hive ships back to 100% (thinking along the lines of replacing burnt out power lines, hull pieces, etc.) anyway, so get some decent milage out of it, then take 'er to the junkers.

A lot of the Hive ship repairs itself through regeneration. And Mckay has proven that he knows enough about Hive ships to make repairs.
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 17th 2008, 2:48 PM
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QUOTE(Joda @ Jan 18th 2008, 12:02 AM) *
... or keep a Wraith ship for a couple episodes before blowing it up... use it on a raid, then let it get toasted... I mean, I don't think we've got the facilities to properly repair the Hive ships back to 100% (thinking along the lines of replacing burnt out power lines, hull pieces, etc.) anyway, so get some decent milage out of it, then take 'er to the junkers.


I don't see why they would even want a Wraith ship anymore, apart from intelligence purposes anyway. Hive ships suck, especially now we've got the Daedalus and Apollo (oh and Odyssey too) upgraded with Asgard weapons.
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Dafmeister
post Jan 17th 2008, 4:30 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Jan 17th 2008, 12:38 AM) *
Well they never said the father was the Athosian, only that she was sleeping with an Athosian, there is room for manipulation of plots by the writers here if they want something else to be the case. Something I've been hoping for since the news of her pregnancy came out. It would just be more interesting.
Teyla also said the father was Kanan (Canaan??) who was an Athosian living on New Athos.
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Revan
post Jan 17th 2008, 5:58 PM
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QUOTE(Pitry @ Jan 14th 2008, 11:38 AM) *

Well... I have no problem with Teyla's conclusion. In fact I think it's the right call, in this situation, particularily as she wants to keep the baby. But the fact it seems natural to anyone - let along SGA writers and quite a lot of fans here and on Gateworld that John Sheppard can misuse his position as his team's leader to force her into (in)action before she reached that conclusion is what drives me nuts.
Had Teyla chosen to smoke or drink during her pregnancy, no one would have had the right to tell her to stop. Her friends could have told her she's acting in a stupid and irresponsible way - which she would have - but they couldn't physically make her stop. Her choosing to risk her pregnancy is stupid and irresponsible in the same way. The only difference is Sheppard, as her commanding officer, can pull her out of active duty. Make the decision for her instead of letting her make the decision.
And it seems natural to way too many people that this is the right way it should be.
And yes, I'm really pissed off because of it, because it's pretty obvious to me where this leads and what it really means about women's place in society. Because when given the chance, so many people - women included - would apparently force their own POV/belief on a woman in such a situation, if they don't consider Sheppard's actions as misuse of power.

Sheppard is responsible for the team and everything the team does. Teyla is in a weakened state and is carrying a child. Not only is it foolish for her to risk the life of her unborn offspring, but it is irresponsible for her to not have told John, and for her to risk her own team when she may, at any time, have some sort of complication.
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Dafmeister
post Jan 17th 2008, 6:33 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Jan 17th 2008, 10:58 PM) *
Sheppard is responsible for the team and everything the team does. Teyla is in a weakened state and is carrying a child. Not only is it foolish for her to risk the life of her unborn offspring, but it is irresponsible for her to not have told John, and for her to risk her own team when she may, at any time, have some sort of complication.
Being pregnant doesn't make Teyla weaker. It was her decision to keep her pregnancy a secret and she had a right to do so. A person doesn't have to share any personal information.
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disgruntledpostie1
post Jan 17th 2008, 6:54 PM
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Sheppard is correct in removing Teyla from active duty, the fact is that there are 2 people means that Sheppard has to take into account an UNWILLING partner. I've known women who have suffered miscarriages and it is one of the most difficult things that I've had to deal with (the argument made that it's because it's my body doesn't work in the real world)
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 17th 2008, 7:50 PM
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QUOTE(disgruntledpostie1 @ Jan 17th 2008, 11:54 PM) *

Sheppard is correct in removing Teyla from active duty, the fact is that there are 2 people means that Sheppard has to take into account an UNWILLING partner. I've known women who have suffered miscarriages and it is one of the most difficult things that I've had to deal with (the argument made that it's because it's my body doesn't work in the real world)

I'm sorry but if it doesn't work in the real world where does it work? That's all there is. Thinking of 'the baby did not sign of to go offworld she is unwilling' is a silly argument imo as it doesn't even have consciousness at this point really, let alone the ability to make it's own decisions. What a child or a baby/foetus does is always up to the parent in real life. Teyla didn't tell Sheppard because she knew how he might react, she knew she could still participate fully in the team and didn't want to, it's her choice really. As I've said, unless she is physically unable somehow to help the team, there is no harm in not telling them for now.
Her realising she 'had to' change her priorities from that of the team only came in SoW, so she was perfectly fit to be on the team for the time being before then. When she realised she had to think of the baby more now she was ok not being on the team. But before that, it's her choice imo.
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 18th 2008, 2:42 AM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 18th 2008, 10:33 AM) *
Being pregnant doesn't make Teyla weaker. It was her decision to keep her pregnancy a secret and she had a right to do so. A person doesn't have to share any personal information.


She does when it affects the team. Which it does, which she admitted. With the responsibilities she has, it's not just her choice anymore, she has an obligation to the team, and should have told Shep as soon as she found out.
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JTMAG1
post Jan 18th 2008, 1:40 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 17th 2008, 6:33 PM) *

Being pregnant doesn't make Teyla weaker. It was her decision to keep her pregnancy a secret and she had a right to do so. A person doesn't have to share any personal information.

I don't want anyone to miscontrue this message as sexist, but It's not secret that when women get pregnant, there comes a point when they are incapable of doing everything that they were previously able to do. And there is a point before that where doing those things is bad for the health of the baby and the mother. Just because someone has a right do drink, doesn't mean they can drink and drive. And just because someone has the right to own a gun doesn't mean they can walk down the street shooting people. Just because Teyla has the right to have a baby, and keep a secret doesn't mean that shey can allow that pregnancy to endager her team member, even if it's by endangering herself or the baby.

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Revan
post Jan 18th 2008, 2:29 PM
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Teyla has a responsiblity to herself and her team. Her pregnancy, while helpful in linking with Wraith ships, is not so useful when she would want to climb a mountain or engage in close combat with a large Wraith soldier. As her pregnancy progresses, she will be less and less able to complete her duties.

Sheppard has a responsibility to everybody on his team as well as the completion of missions and the general preservation of life. He cannot allow Teyla to endanger her baby, herself or the team. As the leader, it is his reponsibility. I don't fault him and I think he was well within his rights to take her off active duty.
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KillerMarv
post Jan 18th 2008, 3:12 PM
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Perfect. We finally get to see how the Wraith defeated the Ancients after all. I have always speculated that it was some "suddenly increasing their numbers" way. I don't know why they torched the place in this episode though. They could have kept it for more episodes in the future. It would have been a nice arc if they could have somehow dismantle the place to not produce Wraith soldiers for the time being, than find out that the facility was actually a ship, the Wraith fly out with it, and the team would have a goal in finding it as fast as they can, before it becomes operational again.

Ah yes, Teyla... Man, Rogue, you sure do make a consistent point about it in this thread. I did like that Wraith queen as well. If she was the only one "making" so many Wraith, could she have been the queens of queens? 1.gif
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JTMAG1
post Jan 18th 2008, 3:34 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 18th 2008, 3:12 PM) *

Perfect. We finally get to see how the Wraith defeated the Ancients after all. I have always speculated that it was some "suddenly increasing their numbers" way. I don't know why they torched the place in this episode though. They could have kept it for more episodes in the future. It would have been a nice arc if they could have somehow dismantle the place to not produce Wraith soldiers for the time being, than find out that the facility was actually a ship, the Wraith fly out with it, and the team would have a goal in finding it as fast as they can, before it becomes operational again.

Ah yes, Teyla... Man, Rogue, you sure do make a consistent point about it in this thread. I did like that Wraith queen as well. If she was the only one "making" so many Wraith, could she have been the queens of queens? 1.gif

I thought about that too, was she the leader of the Wraith, and I also found my self wondering if this place was a ship. Is this the planet that the Wraith Originate on? Lots of questions.
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KillerMarv
post Jan 18th 2008, 3:44 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 18th 2008, 10:34 PM) *

I thought about that too, was she the leader of the Wraith, and I also found my self wondering if this place was a ship. Is this the planet that the Wraith Originate on? Lots of questions.


Well, we can assume that the Wraith Home Planet had Iratus bugs on it. And we can also assume that Iratus bugs need a lot of animal life to survive, and that animal life needs plant life. So, there should be a lot of vegetation around. This planet didn't look like plenty of that to me... Although it's strange with science-fiction shows. You always only get to see a very small area from the planet. The presence of barren land there doesn't count as presence of barren land all around the planet. 1.gif
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JTMAG1
post Jan 18th 2008, 3:47 PM
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Yeah, they could have chosen that barren area on the planet because they needed the open space.
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Revan
post Jan 18th 2008, 4:40 PM
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Why would the Wraith have been so foolish as to place their secret lab on the planet on which they originated?

Course, learning from the Ancients, they may have. Arrogant idiots actually sent lone vessels deep into Wraith space... I wonder if the Aurora was one such vessel, and that She found this cloning planet...
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JTMAG1
post Jan 18th 2008, 5:23 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Jan 18th 2008, 4:40 PM) *

Why would the Wraith have been so foolish as to place their secret lab on the planet on which they originated?

Course, learning from the Ancients, they may have. Arrogant idiots actually sent lone vessels deep into Wraith space... I wonder if the Aurora was one such vessel, and that She found this cloning planet...

Because it was so deep in Wraith territory that they didn't think the Ancients could fight their way in, or they couldn't escape if they tried, as Todd pointed out.
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KillerMarv
post Jan 18th 2008, 6:01 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 19th 2008, 12:23 AM) *

Because it was so deep in Wraith territory that they didn't think the Ancients could fight their way in, or they couldn't escape if they tried, as Todd pointed out.


Yes, that is a possibility. But even with the highest security precautions you can take, you cannot guess what can go wrong. I believe that Revan has a point, the Wraith wouldn't have built their secret facility on their homeworld. biggrin.gif
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Dafmeister
post Jan 18th 2008, 6:19 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Jan 18th 2008, 7:29 PM) *
Teyla has a responsiblity to herself and her team. Her pregnancy, while helpful in linking with Wraith ships, is not so useful when she would want to climb a mountain or engage in close combat with a large Wraith soldier. As her pregnancy progresses, she will be less and less able to complete her duties.

Sheppard has a responsibility to everybody on his team as well as the completion of missions and the general preservation of life. He cannot allow Teyla to endanger her baby, herself or the team. As the leader, it is his reponsibility. I don't fault him and I think he was well within his rights to take her off active duty.
As we have seen up to this point, her pregnancy has not made her any less able. In fact, in this episode, her pregnancy saved everyone's ass. She put her life on the line yet again and she got removed from the team in return. Sheppard proved how petty and vindictive he was by removing Teyla.


QUOTE(Revan @ Jan 18th 2008, 9:40 PM) *
Why would the Wraith have been so foolish as to place their secret lab on the planet on which they originated?
When is it said they originated from that particular planet?
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Revan
post Jan 18th 2008, 6:28 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 18th 2008, 6:19 PM) *

As we have seen up to this point, her pregnancy has not made her any less able. In fact, in this episode, her pregnancy saved everyone's ass. She put her life on the line yet again and she got removed from the team in return. Sheppard proved how petty and vindictive he was by removing Teyla.

When is it said they originated from that particular planet?

I think he is concerned for the child's life. I don't think he can be considered petty or vindictive just because he would rather not place a pregnant woman in harm's way. And besides, he did take her on the mission when he absolutely needed to do so, even though he obviously wanted her someplace safe.

It was rhetoric. I wasn't saying anything about the planet. I was saying it would be stupid to place a secret base somewhere as obvious as their homeworld.
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KillerMarv
post Jan 18th 2008, 6:30 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 19th 2008, 1:19 AM) *

When is it said they originated from that particular planet?


Read the posts above that. JTMAG1 pointed out the possibility that the planet we saw may have been the planet they originated from, and I and Revan continued that discussion. Revan was just making a point considering our discussion. It was all just speculation. 1.gif
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Rogue Ashrak
post Jan 18th 2008, 7:42 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 19th 2008, 7:12 AM) *
... Man, Rogue, you sure do make a consistent point about it in this thread.

So I do. So do a lot of people here actually. Of course then we have the perennial contrarian whos ability to miss valid points and toss common sense out the window never ceases to amaze me:

QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Jan 19th 2008, 10:19 AM) *
As we have seen up to this point, her pregnancy has not made her any less able. In fact, in this episode, her pregnancy saved everyone's ass. She put her life on the line yet again and she got removed from the team in return. Sheppard proved how petty and vindictive he was by removing Teyla.
2 points:
1. At the end of that mission Teyla removed herself from the team (or at least agreed with Shep's assessment from the previous episode) So she didn't get removed in return for risking her life, or anything silly like that. She admitted with perfectly valid reasoning, that Shep was right.
2. As myself and others have stated many times in this thread, it's not about whether or not Teyla is still able (not at this stage of her pregnancy anyway), it's about how her pregnancy affects the decisions of both her and now it's in the open, her teammates. None of them can be expected to put the team first in those situations. For the good of the team, Teyla has to step down. Shep was NOT arrogant or petty to do what he did, all he did was his JOB. In a military situation all the normal rules are changed. Think of the frat regs, its a similar principle.

I think I've reiterated this argument more than enough. I'm thinking that the next time someone comes along and tries to claim some variation on "Shep is a chauvinist jackass, and/or Teyla should be able to do what she wants" I'm just going to tell them that their opinion is moronic. They can figure out why for themselves.

This post has been edited by Rogue Ashrak: Jan 18th 2008, 7:46 PM
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Invisible Painting
post Jan 18th 2008, 8:18 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 18th 2008, 6:40 PM) *

I don't want anyone to miscontrue this message as sexist, but It's not secret that when women get pregnant, there comes a point when they are incapable of doing everything that they were previously able to do. And there is a point before that where doing those things is bad for the health of the baby and the mother. Just because someone has a right do drink, doesn't mean they can drink and drive. And just because someone has the right to own a gun doesn't mean they can walk down the street shooting people. Just because Teyla has the right to have a baby, and keep a secret doesn't mean that shey can allow that pregnancy to endager her team member, even if it's by endangering herself or the baby.

The point is after three months women aren't capable of the point where they're compromising the team, hat comes later, that's where this debate comes from.

And as mentioned before, this 'birth giving' only applies to the faceless Wraith, not them all. I presume Queens/facefull! Wraiths are given birth to in a normal way.
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JTMAG1
post Jan 18th 2008, 8:59 PM
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This may sound harsh, but getting kicked, or shot in the mid section should be bad for Teyla's baby.


Did that say that the only the faceless Wraith are born that way? I don't remember, I will have to rewatch.
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Revan
post Jan 18th 2008, 9:00 PM
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Now were we seeing one of the brute Wraith born or was that a clone? And would the mask have been left in the machine so it was easily accessible, or would it be grown?
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