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> 410 - This Mortal Coil
Rating  4
Dafmeister
post Dec 23rd 2007, 12:55 PM
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QUOTE(lancelot2 @ Dec 23rd 2007, 3:37 PM) *

except for one thing the asurans weren't a failed experiment
They were a failed experiment.
From 'Progeny' said by Niam:
"When the Ancients concluded that the experiment had gone too far - that we would never become the weapon they desired to create - they decided to end it."
The experiment never reached the desired outcomes and so failed. The Asurans were a failed experiment.


QUOTE
so my theory is that the asurans attacked humans when the ancients were around which is why the ancients considered them a failed experiment and so instead of reproggraming them destroyed them(or tried to).
The Asurans attacked Human worlds in revenge for their treatment by the Ancients.


QUOTE
also i would assume that niam left that part out to win weirs trust in progeny.
You are making assmptions about something that was never said in the show.
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Dave312
post Dec 23rd 2007, 5:13 PM
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QUOTE(Pitry @ Dec 24th 2007, 4:14 AM) *

Did they even care if some blocks survived? I mean, they coudln't hurt them, why shoudl they bother?


The Ancients might have tried to wipe out the Asurans because they saw them as a threat to Human worlds. If you saw that your actions could end up meaning the death of millions, would you do something to prevent it? The Ancients only saw the Asurans as a weapon, not as a sentient being. And since it was not a weapon that the Ancients wanted, what was the point in keeping it around if it could cause trouble in the future.
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Revan
post Dec 23rd 2007, 5:29 PM
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If one nanite survived, and had access to raw materials, then it would be able to replicate itself... which is what happened.

The MW replicators aren't as advanced.
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KillerMarv
post Dec 23rd 2007, 5:31 PM
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QUOTE(Dave312 @ Dec 24th 2007, 12:13 AM) *

The Ancients only saw the Asurans as a weapon, not as a sentient being.


Surely, the Ancients were advanced enough to realize the progress their "weapon" has made across time. They saw the Asurans as not turning out the way they planned it. A sentient being can be a crucial weapon, but not a being trying to copy everything you have. That is when that "weapon" starts having two sides.
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Dave312
post Dec 23rd 2007, 5:50 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Dec 24th 2007, 9:31 AM) *

Surely, the Ancients were advanced enough to realize the progress their "weapon" has made across time. They saw the Asurans as not turning out the way they planned it. A sentient being can be a crucial weapon, but not a being trying to copy everything you have. That is when that "weapon" starts having two sides.


You would think the Ancients would have realized. My point was that the Ancients just wanted a weapon, not another race. This is rather similar to the SG-1 episode Urgo where Urgo was created but not intended to be sentient.

This post has been edited by Dave312: Dec 23rd 2007, 5:50 PM
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IndyJan
post Dec 23rd 2007, 7:02 PM
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QUOTE(Dave312 @ Dec 23rd 2007, 5:13 PM) *

If you saw that your actions could end up meaning the death of millions, would you do something to prevent it?


The Ancients didn't do anything to prevent Anubis from wiping out all of Abydos. They did nothing while Anubis was on the move as long as he didn't use any Ancient knowledge. Of course they said it wasn't them, it was Oma who helped him ascend. With Orlin, they wiped out a whole planet because Orlin gave them a weapon. The Ancients didn't really do anything to prevent the Ori to move on the Milky Way. The Ancients shielded the Milky Way, but that was all they did.

Frankly, I'm rathered surprised the Ancients did anything against the Asurans. It has to be because they knew that the Asurans would be an actual threat to them.
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Dafmeister
post Dec 23rd 2007, 7:12 PM
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QUOTE(IndyJan @ Dec 24th 2007, 12:02 AM) *
Frankly, I'm rathered surprised the Ancients did anything against the Asurans. It has to be because they knew that the Asurans would be an actual threat to them.
The Ancients wrote a code into the Asurans' programing that prevented them from attacking the Ancients. They only managed to erase that part of their base code when McKay started to change it.
The only difference I see in the examples you provided was that the Ancients were not ascended at that point. They created the Asurans and possibly felt responsible. They were ascended when Anubis wiped out Abydos, when Orlin shared Ancient knowledge and when the Ori began to move against the Milky Way. After millions of years of ascension, they only interfered to restore the balance their technology upset.
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 23rd 2007, 7:14 PM
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QUOTE(IndyJan @ Dec 24th 2007, 12:02 AM) *

Frankly, I'm rathered surprised the Ancients did anything against the Asurans. It has to be because they knew that the Asurans would be an actual threat to them.

But they weren't ascended yet at this point, they were free to do what they wanted as long as they weren't ascended. That's why they stepped in, and why they're not doing anything now.
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IndyJan
post Dec 26th 2007, 1:22 AM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Dec 23rd 2007, 7:12 PM) *

The only difference I see in the examples you provided was that the Ancients were not ascended at that point. They created the Asurans and possibly felt responsible. They were ascended when Anubis wiped out Abydos, when Orlin shared Ancient knowledge and when the Ori began to move against the Milky Way. After millions of years of ascension, they only interfered to restore the balance their technology upset.


QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Dec 23rd 2007, 7:14 PM) *

But they weren't ascended yet at this point, they were free to do what they wanted as long as they weren't ascended. That's why they stepped in, and why they're not doing anything now.


I understand what you are both saying. I just got the impression that the Ancients always felt that way about helping, ascended or not, but who really knows until or when they actually explain it all.

Edit: Since the Ancients existence is based on technology, I guess they don't see any reason to actually step in and help. As Ascended beings, they appear to not have any feelings about the "lesser" mortals.

This post has been edited by IndyJan: Dec 26th 2007, 1:24 AM
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Dafmeister
post Dec 26th 2007, 6:03 AM
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When we saw the Ancients in 'The Return' (was it Helia? - the one who played the younger Linnea) there was a definite air of superiority and arrogance about her.
I guess it is possible that their arrogance led to a belief that they can do no wrong which in turn caused them to believe they don't need to step in. They were heavily reliant on their technology (which they may have though unbeatable) and relied on it to get them out of any scrape but as we have seen it didn't save them.
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Revan
post Dec 26th 2007, 9:04 AM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Dec 26th 2007, 6:03 AM) *

When we saw the Ancients in 'The Return' (was it Helia? - the one who played the younger Linnea) there was a definite air of superiority and arrogance about her.
I guess it is possible that their arrogance led to a belief that they can do no wrong which in turn caused them to believe they don't need to step in. They were heavily reliant on their technology (which they may have though unbeatable) and relied on it to get them out of any scrape but as we have seen it didn't save them.

The only Ancients we have met that haven't been arrogant asses were immediately and unconditionally shunned for their actions.

Orlin was banished (though he did make a serious mistake) and then he made a serious sacrifice
Merlin was chased all over the place.
Ganas Lal was "punished"
Oma was shunned and then allowed to sacrifice her existence to stop Anubis


Helia and her group were fools, even Moros was unpleasant when he was first alive.
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lancelot2
post Dec 26th 2007, 9:46 AM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Dec 26th 2007, 3:04 PM) *

The only Ancients we have met that haven't been arrogant asses were immediately and unconditionally shunned for their actions.

Orlin was banished (though he did make a serious mistake) and then he made a serious sacrifice
Merlin was chased all over the place.
Ganas Lal was "punished"
Oma was shunned and then allowed to sacrifice her existence to stop Anubis
Helia and her group were fools, even Moros was unpleasant when he was first alive.

not too mention janus who was told off by the council for messing with the timeline.
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 26th 2007, 2:22 PM
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I don't beleive they can do no wrong, but one of the main reasons for their 'no interference' policy is to keep them as far away as they can from the Ori, they don't want to become them and it's possible they believe the more they interfere the closer they'll become. Which is why they have a no interference policy.
It's possible they know most of the current problems they created by interfering while 'human' and felt the best course was to just leave it in the hands of those left and to not interfere.

But we probably won't know smile.gif
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lancelot2
post Dec 27th 2007, 10:18 AM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Dec 26th 2007, 8:22 PM) *

I don't beleive they can do no wrong, but one of the main reasons for their 'no interference' policy is to keep them as far away as they can from the Ori, they don't want to become them and it's possible they believe the more they interfere the closer they'll become. Which is why they have a no interference policy.
It's possible they know most of the current problems they created by interfering while 'human' and felt the best course was to just leave it in the hands of those left and to not interfere.

But we probably won't know smile.gif

unless we have a chat with another ascended person and ask them.
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 27th 2007, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE(lancelot2 @ Dec 27th 2007, 3:18 PM) *

unless we have a chat with another ascended person and ask them.

They've had loads of times to ask them and just haven't tongue.gif Just like we could have asked one of the 4 races about the Furlings but that would be too easy whistling.gif

This post has been edited by Invisible Painting: Dec 27th 2007, 12:30 PM
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Revan
post Dec 27th 2007, 1:08 PM
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Their answer would be: You have to find your own answers.
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lancelot2
post Dec 28th 2007, 9:13 AM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Dec 27th 2007, 7:08 PM) *

Their answer would be: You have to find your own answers.

exactly which is such a big cop out i mean if you are faced with someone who was there why can't they tell you about themselves and what they did at the time i mean that isn't breaking any cosmic rules it's not giving us any technological advantage it's just giving us a little history.
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Revan
post Dec 28th 2007, 9:47 AM
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QUOTE(lancelot2 @ Dec 28th 2007, 9:13 AM) *

exactly which is such a big cop out i mean if you are faced with someone who was there why can't they tell you about themselves and what they did at the time i mean that isn't breaking any cosmic rules it's not giving us any technological advantage it's just giving us a little history.

Beings have to find wisdom on their own. It isn't something that can simply be given. Great leaps in technology tend to destroy civilizations. Knowing how they did it could affect us, and that wouldn't be acceptable.
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 28th 2007, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Dec 28th 2007, 2:47 PM) *

Beings have to find wisdom on their own. It isn't something that can simply be given. Great leaps in technology tend to destroy civilizations. Knowing how they did it could affect us, and that wouldn't be acceptable.

Knowledge and understanding about tech yes, but the history of a civilisation you pretty much have to get from them, and if not then by someone else who also knows. You can't just aquire that on your own, the only way you can get it is by another civilisation either making a record of it or someone telling you. But it's not knowledge that you can gain on your own like science. So that point I'd say no.
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Revan
post Dec 28th 2007, 10:50 AM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Dec 28th 2007, 10:03 AM) *

Knowledge and understanding about tech yes, but the history of a civilisation you pretty much have to get from them, and if not then by someone else who also knows. You can't just aquire that on your own, the only way you can get it is by another civilisation either making a record of it or someone telling you. But it's not knowledge that you can gain on your own like science. So that point I'd say no.

They probably want societies to find their own way... their own path to enlightenment.
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IndyJan
post Dec 29th 2007, 2:41 AM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Dec 26th 2007, 9:04 AM) *

The only Ancients we have met that haven't been arrogant asses were immediately and unconditionally shunned for their actions.

Orlin was banished (though he did make a serious mistake) and then he made a serious sacrifice
Merlin was chased all over the place.
Ganas Lal was "punished"
Oma was shunned and then allowed to sacrifice her existence to stop Anubis
Helia and her group were fools, even Moros was unpleasant when he was first alive.


I'm sure it's because of their arrogance that these ancients decided to step in and help. Now I will agree that what Orlin did had consequences for the people he helped. We have to think about what those people did, did it warrant being wiped out by the Ancients? I don't think so. I think another lesson could have been taught.

Oma helped Anubis and he turned out to be truly evil. Allowing him to continue with his destruction, I think was an inappropriate move for the Ancients to take. I think Oma also helped the correct people to ascend, such as Daniel.

As far as Merlin, it appears that he might actually be the one person that can help defeat the Ori. You would think that would be something that the Ancients would approve it, but once again, not so much.

I think they believe as one, just like the Ori do. They act as one, both of them. Of course, they were one at one time, and have separated. Each to go in their own direction. The Ancients want you to ascend on your own and do your own thing, with no interference. The Ori do not help their "believers" to ascend. They just want undying devotion and if you don't agree, it's pretty much "off with your head!"
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lancelot2
post Dec 29th 2007, 8:10 AM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Dec 23rd 2007, 6:55 PM) *

They were a failed experiment.
From 'Progeny' said by Niam:
"When the Ancients concluded that the experiment had gone too far - that we would never become the weapon they desired to create - they decided to end it."
The experiment never reached the desired outcomes and so failed. The Asurans were a failed experiment.
The Asurans attacked Human worlds in revenge for their treatment by the Ancients.
You are making assmptions about something that was never said in the show.

i believe that it was implied by my statement that i was making an assumption.and one thing you are probably not thinking is could niam have been lying to gain weirs trust remember we have only niams word
that what he said was true and as i'm sure you can figure out if he made weir sympathetic to his cause she'd be more willing to co-operate.as we've seen since we reactivated their programming to attack the wraith
they attack them and do the job they are programmed to do so there must have been something else that made the ancients decide that the assurans were a failure,i'm guessing that they attacked and killed either some or even just one human.and the assurans seeing that they attacked human(s) retaliated by wiping the assurans out to prevent them from attacking humans again.
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 29th 2007, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE(lancelot2 @ Dec 29th 2007, 1:10 PM) *

i believe that it was implied by my statement that i was making an assumption.and one thing you are probably not thinking is could niam have been lying to gain weirs trust remember we have only niams word
that what he said was true and as i'm sure you can figure out if he made weir sympathetic to his cause she'd be more willing to co-operate.as we've seen since we reactivated their programming to attack the wraith
they attack them and do the job they are programmed to do so there must have been something else that made the ancients decide that the assurans were a failure,i'm guessing that they attacked and killed either some or even just one human.and the assurans seeing that they attacked human(s) retaliated by wiping the assurans out to prevent them from attacking humans again.

Given that it was highly speculated that they created the virus in 'Hot Zone', that virus was specifically designed to wip out humans, not ancients. So there could actually be some truth in this.....

I do believe that Niam was being honest though, if they did make the virus it could have been after the ancients tried to stop them. But again we don't know....
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Revan
post Dec 29th 2007, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE(IndyJan @ Dec 29th 2007, 2:41 AM) *

I'm sure it's because of their arrogance that these ancients decided to step in and help. Now I will agree that what Orlin did had consequences for the people he helped. We have to think about what those people did, did it warrant being wiped out by the Ancients? I don't think so. I think another lesson could have been taught.

Well they were given highly advanced technology and were about to move on to galactic conquest...
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