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> 409 - Miller's Crossing
Rating  4
Revan
post Dec 3rd 2007, 8:51 PM
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With Ronon, it was funny having him and Harriman in the cafeteria, and not caring to look over all of those reports, and wearing those clothes and still sticking out.

Teyla would have fit in fairly well, I think.


I like how Jeanie kept asking Meredith if he was going to marry Katie. laugh.gif
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 3rd 2007, 9:11 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Dec 4th 2007, 1:51 AM) *

With Ronon, it was funny having him and Harriman in the cafeteria, and not caring to look over all of those reports, and wearing those clothes and still sticking out.

Teyla would have fit in fairly well, I think.
I like how Jeanie kept asking Meredith if he was going to marry Katie. laugh.gif

Yeah but I didn't like the direction that conversation went in. They weren't like 'Oh yeah maybe', even though she was the one who brought it onto this, it more went in the direction of 'you're not going to find someone better and that's why you're with her'. Doubting the real reasons he's with her in other words. I'd rather them keep it in the 'I'm with her because I like her' region as I Do want them to get married, at some point anyway it would be sweet smile.gif
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Samara Draven
post Dec 3rd 2007, 9:49 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Dec 3rd 2007, 9:11 PM) *

Yeah but I didn't like the direction that conversation went in. They weren't like 'Oh yeah maybe', even though she was the one who brought it onto this, it more went in the direction of 'you're not going to find someone better and that's why you're with her'. Doubting the real reasons he's with her in other words. I'd rather them keep it in the 'I'm with her because I like her' region as I Do want them to get married, at some point anyway it would be sweet smile.gif


Yeah, it would be sweet. I don't think they were trying to change the reason he was with her. I think Jeannie was trying to find something else to talk about and get to know how things are for her brother, who hates thinking, much less talking, about personal stuff. He's probably thought of it but he's too afraid of making that huge step or being rejected to take the risk yet. So he reacted the way McKay does; he clammed up and Jeannie's the one who kept digging into it as only a sibling can. They are competitve against each other and she knows her brother has faults, a fact she'll happily remind him of. And Rodney didn't take the bait, really. He tried to change the subject.

I think the writers were going for another funny sibling rivalry moment, which I found amusing. And in many a fan fic Rodney's internal voice often has him considering his imperfections in comparison to Sheppard. He knows he has his faults and he's insecure about them. Which is probably part of the reason why he hasn't proposed to Katie. He's still trying to understand what she sees in him and he thinks he's so imperfect any sane woman would say no. He's afraid of rejection and he's sure that's what he'll get.
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Revan
post Dec 3rd 2007, 10:12 PM
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Thinking as a defense mechanism. He is afraid of what he might feel so he analyzes situations to the point where they no longer contain emotion. He is analyzing his relationship with Katie, instead of just going with it.

I will say though, he is getting better at just being with her. As we have seen, he is more relaxed around her and more caring. I want them to explore that part of his personality, as they did in this episode with his caring for Jeanie.
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IndyJan
post Dec 4th 2007, 11:30 AM
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Rodney is very insecure. I loved his sister telling him, "well you're no John Sheppard." Then at the end when Rodney was talking to Shep about their looks, and then Shep asking, "who's been lying?" That was funny and typical McKay.
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JTMAG1
post Dec 4th 2007, 12:34 PM
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Yeah, I thought that line from his sister was hilarious.
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Pitry
post Dec 4th 2007, 3:08 PM
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they all were. I really, really love the Rodney/ Jeannie dynamics - as much as I wasn't a big fan of McKay and Mrs Miller, the banter between the two saved the episode. And since this episode was better to begin with.. ;)
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Dafmeister
post Dec 4th 2007, 4:33 PM
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Not a bad episode but not a great one. David and Kate's interaction was the best part of the episode but the plot could have been an original one.
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JC1
post Dec 4th 2007, 4:47 PM
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Another good episode. It was nice to see the Atlantis team on Earth even if having Ronan there was a bit pointless.

Feeding the Wraith as Sheppard did, felt a bit wrong. And Sheppard didn't seem comfortable with what he'd done. But it was nice to see Atlantis go down morally questionable path and not take the easy way out.
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seymour
post Dec 4th 2007, 5:10 PM
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Best part was Sheppard arranging the menu for the Wraith's dinner. Nice to see a darker, more ruthless side to this previously vapid character.

Bringing the Wraith to Earth so he could check out the new food supply? I don't think so - a totally irresponsible decision!

BTW-security? Hello, by now, the secret of the stagate program remains a secret to only a few!
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Revan
post Dec 4th 2007, 8:11 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Dec 4th 2007, 4:33 PM) *

Not a bad episode but not a great one. David and Kate's interaction was the best part of the episode but the plot could have been an original one.

What episode did they steal the plot from?
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Samara Draven
post Dec 4th 2007, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Dec 4th 2007, 5:10 PM) *

Best part was Sheppard arranging the menu for the Wraith's dinner. Nice to see a darker, more ruthless side to this previously vapid character.

Bringing the Wraith to Earth so he could check out the new food supply? I don't think so - a totally irresponsible decision!

BTW-security? Hello, by now, the secret of the stagate program remains a secret to only a few!



Well, it's not like they took him sightseeing up top to look at all the fat juicy humans walking about. They may not have told him where he was going. He may not have known he was on Earth. For all he knows, he's on a second human base in Pegasus. Plus, the Wraith as a species know about the humans that set up shop on Atlantis and they also knew about these humans being from Earth. As a whole, the Wraith knew this. They also all believe that the humans destroyed Atlantis. Very few Wraith know differently and most of them have been wiped out. This Wraith wouldn't have known any of this when he met Sheppard because of his captivity with Kolya, but he'd be able to piece it all together when he was picked up by his new hive. When hearing of the humans who took Atlantis, he'd figure out it was Sheppard especially after being tossed in the Ancients brig. So, it wouldn't have been that far a stretch to conclude he'd been brought to Earth. Beyond that, he shouldn't know much of anything.
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 4th 2007, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Dec 4th 2007, 10:10 PM) *

BTW-security? Hello, by now, the secret of the stagate program remains a secret to only a few!

As has been established from Covenent in season 8 they cannot keep everything secret. The fact that they've kept what they ave done as secrret is unrealistic so adding to the sense that they HAVE to ourside contract (whihch they would have to in that situation) as true is realistic. It seems fairly fair to me, esp given a lot of people in their situation WOULD ask questions. I thought it was good anyway.

Also Pitry, what weren't you a fan of Mckay and Ms Miller about? I thought it was one of the best episodes of the season.
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seymour
post Dec 4th 2007, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE(Samara Draven @ Dec 4th 2007, 10:00 PM) *

Well, it's not like they took him sightseeing up top to look at all the fat juicy humans walking about. They may not have told him where he was going. He may not have known he was on Earth. For all he knows, he's on a second human base in Pegasus. Plus, the Wraith as a species know about the humans that set up shop on Atlantis and they also knew about these humans being from Earth. As a whole, the Wraith knew this. They also all believe that the humans destroyed Atlantis. Very few Wraith know differently and most of them have been wiped out. This Wraith wouldn't have known any of this when he met Sheppard because of his captivity with Kolya, but he'd be able to piece it all together when he was picked up by his new hive. When hearing of the humans who took Atlantis, he'd figure out it was Sheppard especially after being tossed in the Ancients brig. So, it wouldn't have been that far a stretch to conclude he'd been brought to Earth. Beyond that, he shouldn't know much of anything.

The Wraith wasn't even blinfolded when he arrived on Earth- he'd have been able to see the Atlantis Chevrons lighting up!
The Atlantis people didn't need to tell him anything. Wraith know how to use the Gates. He has eyes and ears.

I don't like making excuses for either poor plot, continuity or direction. It should not be necessary to create a backstory of excuses.


QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Dec 4th 2007, 10:02 PM) *

As has been established from Covenent in season 8 they cannot keep everything secret. The fact that they've kept what they ave done as secrret is unrealistic so adding to the sense that they HAVE to ourside contract (which they would have to in that situation) as true is realistic. It seems fairly fair to me, esp given a lot of people in their situation WOULD ask questions. I thought it was good anyway.


Not arguing with the need to contract out work to disseminate the alien technology.

But, a basic rule when you contract out work is "Keep an very close eye on your contractors"! In this case the contractors were keeping more of an eye on those who hired them to do a job. Very poor security.

Second.. What's with McKay e-mailing stuff to his sister's laptop that someone had sunk a trojan onto? What's she using? Microsoft Windows? If she had secret stuff she should have had a really secure computer. Poor security. Yes, it's a plot device but it's a plot device that makes the SGC look like a bunch of amateurs.
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JTMAG1
post Dec 5th 2007, 1:34 AM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Dec 4th 2007, 11:13 PM) *

The Wraith wasn't even blinfolded when he arrived on Earth- he'd have been able to see the Atlantis Chevrons lighting up!
The Atlantis people didn't need to tell him anything. Wraith know how to use the Gates. He has eyes and ears.

I don't like making excuses for either poor plot, continuity or direction. It should not be necessary to create a backstory of excuses.
Not arguing with the need to contract out work to disseminate the alien technology.

But, a basic rule when you contract out work is "Keep an very close eye on your contractors"! In this case the contractors were keeping more of an eye on those who hired them to do a job. Very poor security.

Second.. What's with McKay e-mailing stuff to his sister's laptop that someone had sunk a trojan onto? What's she using? Microsoft Windows? If she had secret stuff she should have had a really secure computer. Poor security. Yes, it's a plot device but it's a plot device that makes the SGC look like a bunch of amateurs.

The Wraith can know the address to Earth all they want, they can't dial an 8 chevron address, and they can fly to its location.
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Samara Draven
post Dec 5th 2007, 3:11 AM
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QUOTE(seymour @ Dec 4th 2007, 11:13 PM) *

The Wraith wasn't even blinfolded when he arrived on Earth- he'd have been able to see the Atlantis Chevrons lighting up!
The Atlantis people didn't need to tell him anything. Wraith know how to use the Gates. He has eyes and ears.


Yes he has eyes and ears, but given that the wormhole was already open when they showed Shep and McKay waiting for him, I'm inclined to think he was kept out of the room during dialing because they know he has eyes and ears. I know many times the TPTB have mucked up episodes but I do think this is one of those cases where a person can assume the SGC and SGA messed up or choose to believe in their competence. There is no evidence to conclude anything.

Also, the midway station is still in place. There is no need to use the ZPM to make a direct connection when they have another option and McKay described the macro, desgined to ferry a person along, as keeping them in the stargate buffer and dialing the next gate in the chain of gates. The last address that Atlantis would've dialed would be the first stop along the intergalactic bridge, so again, no Earth address. Not even an eigth chevron would've been needed. I doubt the Wraith could surmise he went to Earth even if he was in the room when the gate was dialed. But then whether he was in the room or not is an assumption. Whether they used the midway station or not is an assumption. There is not enough information to jump to the conclusion that they screwed up in this instance.

There is not enough information to jump to the conclusion that they didn't, so the argument is not about fact. It's about what one believes is fact. If you want to see a mistake then you will see a mistake regardless of what anyone could tell you. You're right: We shouldn't have to come up with a back story or a reason to explain a mistake - when there is one. It sucks to have to explain a mistake. But they also shouldn't have to explain all the little stuff we should already know. They believe we are more intelligent than that and I for one would rather be treated as if I were intelligent rather than not.

Their other security mistake - the Wallace guy - was a mistake. He would have had to get a hold of a leak somewhere. He would need to have been dropped a few too many bread crumbs to have even had an inkling of where to get his info. I do agree they showed the SGC as being weak - a condition I blame on the IOA - and they've given us no explanation, but then the how of it wasn't the point of the episode. It was the kind of thing that should never have occurred. Leaks happen within an operation as big as the stargate program, just like with that reporter, Juila Donovan.

The only real answer would be to keep close tabs on every possible person at every possible level of involvement and nip the problem before it starts. If they'd done that, they'd have known about Wallace. They'd have known his daughter was sick. They'd have thought, "Hmm, maybe we shouldn't contract with this company - whose President is a widower with a terminally sick child - to develop nanite based cures for injuries and disease." But then that would be all too Big Brother-ish and would greatly increase their security expenditures in a top secret program that already costs them billions of dollars. And if they showed all that and how they're not making mistakes, it'd be the Stargate : I'm A Top Secret Spy And I Work For A Government That Watches Over Me show. Sounds rather boring to me.

This post has been edited by Samara Draven: Dec 5th 2007, 3:16 AM
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JTMAG1
post Dec 5th 2007, 4:08 AM
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Yes Samara, I forgot about the gate bridge. It is dialed with the Macro, so no address would help anyone.
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Pitry
post Dec 5th 2007, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Dec 5th 2007, 5:02 AM) *

Also Pitry, what weren't you a fan of Mckay and Ms Miller about? I thought it was one of the best episodes of the season.


I adored McKay and Mrs Miller til about the mid point - as logn a it was simpyl a story of too enstrange siblings nad McKay dealign with Jeannie, I loved it. The soon Rod stepped into the picture - it jsut felt too much like there jsut wasn't enough plot for the episode... i remember watching it and feeling they accidentily shot the first draft instead of the final one ;)
Plus, Rod was too much Ace Rimmer biggrin.gif
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Invisible Painting
post Dec 5th 2007, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE(Pitry @ Dec 5th 2007, 3:03 PM) *

I adored McKay and Mrs Miller til about the mid point - as logn a it was simpyl a story of too enstrange siblings nad McKay dealign with Jeannie, I loved it. The soon Rod stepped into the picture - it jsut felt too much like there jsut wasn't enough plot for the episode... i remember watching it and feeling they accidentily shot the first draft instead of the final one ;)
Plus, Rod was too much Ace Rimmer biggrin.gif

Lol, I never made the Rimmer connections biggrin.gif But the Rod thing was a plot device, to get Rodney to see how bad a brother he has been. It was there for a specific reason and you could see that, it wasn't there unnecesserily and it was probably a good decision to have imo.
But while on that note the commentary said that Martin Gero was at a point with the episode and wasn't sure where to go with it, Rob Cooper sugested bringing Rod over but MG didn't like it and didn't go with it. But then talking to him later he realised that it could be used for that reason to get Mckay to see how bad he was and he put it in.
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Dafmeister
post Dec 5th 2007, 2:07 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Dec 5th 2007, 1:11 AM) *
What episode did they steal the plot from?
'Desperate Measures'. A member of the Stargate Programme is kidnapped in order to save someone's life. The plot is a rehash from when Sam was kidnapped.
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Pitry
post Dec 5th 2007, 2:44 PM
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QUOTE(Invisible Painting @ Dec 5th 2007, 6:09 PM) *

Lol, I never made the Rimmer connections biggrin.gif But the Rod thing was a plot device, to get Rodney to see how bad a brother he has been. It was there for a specific reason and you could see that, it wasn't there unnecesserily and it was probably a good decision to have imo.
But while on that note the commentary said that Martin Gero was at a point with the episode and wasn't sure where to go with it, Rob Cooper sugested bringing Rod over but MG didn't like it and didn't go with it. But then talking to him later he realised that it could be used for that reason to get Mckay to see how bad he was and he put it in.


Interesting - I usually like episodes more after what apparently was Rob Cooper influences! biggrin.gif Ah, well, win some, lose some.

I just felt they literally lost the plot at that point. It felt like half an episode... I know the point was to make Meredith see what a crap brother he is... but it's not enough to base an episode on, methinks. At least, not written like that!

Edit: i actually felt the plot was stolen from Covenant...

This post has been edited by Pitry: Dec 5th 2007, 2:44 PM
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post Dec 5th 2007, 3:01 PM
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I thought this episode was brilliant but as someone already pointed out, this idea was done before. It's a great idea the first time around, but they need to come up with something original. overall 3.5/5. IMO
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Revan
post Dec 5th 2007, 5:57 PM
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QUOTE(Dafmeister @ Dec 5th 2007, 2:07 PM) *

'Desperate Measures'. A member of the Stargate Programme is kidnapped in order to save someone's life. The plot is a rehash from when Sam was kidnapped.

Oh yeah the rich guy that got implanted with a symbiote... right, I see the similarities.

An episode doesn't have to be original to be fresh. I thought it was great, even with it being a re-hash. When I don't see the similarities without being reminded, I am content and/or pleased.
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seymour
post Dec 5th 2007, 6:37 PM
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QUOTE(Samara Draven @ Dec 5th 2007, 3:11 AM) *
.......... I'm inclined to think he was kept out of the room during dialing because they know he has eyes and ears. I know many times the TPTB have mucked up episodes but I do think this is one of those cases where a person can assume the SGC and SGA messed up or choose to believe in their competence. There is no evidence to conclude anything. ............

...................Also, the midway station is still in place. ................it'd be the Stargate : I'm A Top Secret Spy And I Work For A Government That Watches Over Me show. Sounds rather boring to me.

Some well-known reasons to be careful who gets into (and out of) the SGC and other "safe" sites

Hathor (113)
Linea (203)
Apophis (218)
Nirrti (506)
Reese (519)
Replicator Carter (811)
Khalek (909)
Jasec (1018)

I could go on but I think the show is better named "I'm A Top Secret Spy And I Work For A Government Operation That Repeatedly Endangers The Entire Planet By Making The Same Mistakes Over and Over Again".

I sure the Wraith will put all this new intel (Midway Station, SGC computers etc.) to good use. Did the SGC (or at least this week's writers) forget the Wraith possess telepathic abilities? Did they forget Wraith have demonstrated psychic projection, inducing hallucinations in humans. It was an unacceptable (and unrealistic) risk for the military bringing him to Earth for one life.
QUOTE(Samara Draven @ Dec 5th 2007, 3:11 AM) *
But they also shouldn't have to explain all the little stuff we should already know. They believe we are more intelligent than that and I for one would rather be treated as if I were intelligent rather than not.

I wouldn't describe most TV viewing (especially the Sci Fi Channel) as a intelligent occupation. Atlantis is just fun (as is this discussion board), it's better than most other shows! When I want to be treated as the intelligent person I am - I engage in other activities than watching TV! The purpose of the TV show (Atlantis included) is "treating" the viewer to buy stuff shown in the commericals.

Read about the the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Substitution Act of 2007 and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and then tell me if you find the concept of "big brother" watching over us all boring.

Bottom line, best part was Sheppard preparing the human sacrifice. Now that guy is beginning to interest me.

This "darker" side of Sheppard follows on from the "darker" side of Teyla revealed in in Missing (407). Contrast those changes with Rodney prepared give up his life for his sister's.

The episode reminded me of Rite of Passage - when O'Neill made a deal with Nirrti to save Cassandra.

This post has been edited by seymour: Dec 5th 2007, 8:08 PM
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