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> 404 - Doppelganger
Rating  4
Arcady
post Oct 12th 2007, 6:21 PM
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Season 4, Episode 4 - Doppelganger
Air date: October 19, 2007

While on an exploratory walk on a jungle planet, Lt. Col. Sheppard touches a crystalline growth and becomes host to an infectious energy form.

Episode Guide | Spoilers | Teaser

(This topic is for people who have seen the episode to discuss it. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read this topic.)
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Magnavox
post Oct 19th 2007, 9:19 PM
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Oh dear, first post. 1.gif This is copied from LJ coz I'm too lazy to type it all out again:

* I loved the whole opening teaser, from the jungle walk, to Rodney and Zelenka's mission bets. "I am a science team!" hehe...

* Teyla's dream. I really enjoyed the dream sequences in this episode, they managed not to be cheesy, and denoted a certain air of horror film-eque-ness...about them tongue.gif Creepy!Shep was damn creepy. And it was cool to see bug!Shep again too. And why is this the second time Ronan has alluded to his idea that Sheppard and Teyla should get together? Of course, this Ronan was in Teyla's head...

* The over breakfast chat. Poor Rodney and his fear of whales? It seems odd that they bring this up now seeing as both Grace Under Pressure and Echoes involved whales, and yet it was never brought up as a pertinent fear of Mckay's. Moby Dick, LOL! And his dream about Sam, lemon chicken and Zelenka, ...and then he's eaten by a whale, hehe.

* Keller's dream. Of course it was an Alien rip off, they mention this later on,
» Click to Show Spoiler «


* Ronan's dream. Again, the horror movie feel of this was great. I also wonder if these nightmares have any basis on the character's actual fears? Shep burring Ronan alive? Creepy.

* Why is Sam on Atlantis again? Other than to pull in the SG-1 viewers?

* Major Lorne toes!

* One of the things about Atlantis that really bugs me is the referencing of SG-1 episodes that they are so clearly 'paying homage' to. If you were an SG-1 viewer, you already know this stuff duh! and if you're just an Atlantis viewer, than you probably don't care. It's lame.

* Heightmeyer's death. Pointless! How many more characters are they going to get rid of on this show? Sure they 'shook things up' like this in episodes like Hot Zone, but c'mon, killing off the supporting cast is getting old. And she was showing a fair amount of tit.

* Keller, again, I'm pretty easy when it comes to welcoming new characters to a show...usually. Keller, she almost gets there, and then she goes and does something lame, and it's gone. After Sam's announcement of Kate's death, Keller (what is her first name btw?) appears to be sucking up to Sam, acting all unsure in much the same way as she did when first introduced with Weir. I won't be surprised if Sam/Keller fic starts popping up.

* The Shep/Teyla hug. Aww bless, they were sweet.
» Click to Show Spoiler «


* Why is Sam wearing low cut tops? That's not exactly standard issue uniform.

* McKay's dream. Of all the random things! ROFL. The rowboat...the whale... "Nice whale, nice whale, you're my friend...don't eat me!" And the clown! "I hate clowns!" And of course, in the end they were eaten by the whale! Hehe...

* Sheppard's dream. Shep vs Shep - awesome. I really enjoyed the fight scene. Question is, and I bring back what I mentioned before, are the fears portrayed in their dreams those of the character or are they general and imparted on them by evil!Shep? If they are those of the character, does Shep fear himself above all else? His actions, decisions, failures? It's an interesting thought seeing as he was just in a position of authority and command at the beginning of the season.

* Shep and McKay in each other's dreams. I think these events go a long way to repairing their friendship which appears to have been under strain since Adrift.

* "Which one are you?" "Me, me" "You?" - Spirits anyone?

* "Would have thought there'd be more hot girls." "Yeah." LMAO!

* I have to say, the ending could have so easily come off as lame, but it seemed for the most part to work. The team gathering around for a 'midnight snack' great. Even Keller joining them I can understand seeing as she had dined with them earlier so there's a familiarity there. But Sam? She felt tacked on, and her presence at such an intimate gathering,...I'm not sure it worked that well. The scene itself was sweet nonetheless.
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wonderland
post Oct 19th 2007, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE(magnavox @ Oct 19th 2007, 10:19 PM) *


* One of the things about Atlantis that really bugs me is the referencing of SG-1 episodes that they are so clearly 'paying homage' to. If you were an SG-1 viewer, you already know this stuff duh! and if you're just an Atlantis viewer, than you probably don't care. It's lame.

* "Which one are you?" "Me, me" "You?" - Spirits anyone?

* "Would have thought there'd be more hot girls." "Yeah." LMAO!.



I agree with you on all three points. When Shep and McKay were doing the 'are you you?', the first thing I thought of was that Jack/Daniel scene.

They're still taking too much from SG-1. Shep going in to McKay's dreams was just a rehash of Daniel and Teal'c in 'Avatar'.
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Arcady
post Oct 19th 2007, 10:56 PM
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I liked this episode better when it was the three SG-1 episodes they ripped off to make it.
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Revan
post Oct 20th 2007, 12:13 AM
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They kept making little comments about John and Teyla. Ronon said John was single, and in Teyla's dream Ronon said something about them getting together... Even Heightmeyer said something to Teyla about what was real between her and John. And they had that little hug as well.

I really liked this episode, even if Heightmeyer died.

QUOTE(magnavox @ Oct 19th 2007, 10:19 PM) *

* Heightmeyer's death. Pointless! How many more characters are they going to get rid of on this show? Sure they 'shook things up' like this in episodes like Hot Zone, but c'mon, killing off the supporting cast is getting old. And she was showing a fair amount of tit.

* Keller, again, I'm pretty easy when it comes to welcoming new characters to a show...usually. Keller, she almost gets there, and then she goes and does something lame, and it's gone. After Sam's announcement of Kate's death, Keller (what is her first name btw?) appears to be sucking up to Sam, acting all unsure in much the same way as she did when first introduced with Weir. I won't be surprised if Sam/Keller fic starts popping up.

* Why is Sam wearing low cut tops? That's not exactly standard issue uniform.

* "Would have thought there'd be more hot girls." "Yeah." LMAO!

Maybe she wasn't going to be available. On BSG they killed off Billy because the actor was going on to other things and couldn't be there all the time.

Well anybody would be unsure in that situation.

I don't mind low-cut tops... whistling.gif

Well Sheppard does a good job of paying homage to James T. Kirk.

QUOTE(Arcady @ Oct 19th 2007, 11:56 PM) *

I liked this episode better when it was the three SG-1 episodes they ripped off to make it.

So we have Cold Lazarus for one...

What was the episode with the device they used to get John into Rodney's head?
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BlackBolt
post Oct 20th 2007, 4:25 AM
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Carter should really have a more important role in the future episodes... So far Weir would've been much better (as a character) as the head of the expedition. :|
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IndyJan
post Oct 20th 2007, 6:20 AM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Oct 20th 2007, 12:13 AM) *

They kept making little comments about John and Teyla. Ronon said John was single, and in Teyla's dream Ronon said something about them getting together... Even Heightmeyer said something to Teyla about what was real between her and John. And they had that little hug as well.

I really liked this episode, even if Heightmeyer died.
Maybe she wasn't going to be available. On BSG they killed off Billy because the actor was going on to other things and couldn't be there all the time.

Well anybody would be unsure in that situation.

I don't mind low-cut tops... whistling.gif

Well Sheppard does a good job of paying homage to James T. Kirk.
So we have Cold Lazarus for one...

What was the episode with the device they used to get John into Rodney's head?


The first episode was Lazarus. Then they used Gamekeeper from Season 2 and finally Avatar from season 8. The Gamekeeper was the first episode about the VR. Then in Avatar they had Daniel enter Teal'c's dream to help him. Sam alluded to them.

They not only alluded to John and Teyla but they also had someone mention to Keller that John isn't seeing anyone.

The dreams were pretty creepy. In Teyla's she thought about her father and John reverting back to a bug and getting ready to suck her life out. I think Teyla's loss of her father affected her deeply at the same time I think she's not all that comfortable with her Wraith DNA.

With Keller, she couldn't do anything to help Teyla. Keller at times has not shown complete confidence in her abilities to perform as a doctor.

With Ronon, he was all alone on Atlantis. He has no one from Sateda and found a new family on Atlantis, but once again, he was alone. Then he fights John and John buries him. The ultimate in being alone.

With Rodney, his was dreaming of Sam, which is not unusual, but she was giving him lemon chicken which he's highly allergic too and it would kill him.

With John, he fears himself in regards to all his decision making and the deaths that have occurred and losing Weir.

The dreams I believe were showing the major fears of each individual. I loved them telling Ronon about the movie Alien, and his comment, "I have to see this movie."

I also loved John's comment about clowns, "I hate clowns." As an adult I have learned that quite a few people are turned off by clowns.

As far as Sam, I think she did a pretty good job of leading and making decisions. She's on Atlantis to oversee and to lead. She didn't go off-world. She had Shep's team do that. In regards to the low cut top, that didn't bother me as much as the actual Atlantis uniform just didn't look right on her. I guess no one wears an actual military uniform on Atlantis. They have their own design and that is what everyone wears.

I loved that this was a joint effort in finding out what had happened, how to combat it and how to save Atlantis and as many people as possible. I so enjoyed not having Rodney be the arrogant one and saving the day. I also liked that when Rodney wants to be "the science team," and when he doesn't want to be "the science team," was done in perfect Rodneyism! wink.gif

Even though this was a total re-hash of stories from SG1, because RCC wrote and directed it, it worked.
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Invisible Painting
post Oct 20th 2007, 6:56 AM
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QUOTE(IndyJan @ Oct 20th 2007, 12:20 PM) *

Even though this was a total re-hash of stories from SG1, because RCC wrote and directed it, it worked.

Well if you read some of the behind the scenes (See: http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/blog/?p=1003) you'll see that RCC reused that SG-1 episode on purpose, and it was one of the main themes of the episode rather then trying to hide it which they've done with a few of their other re-hash's. But you could tell it was more central to the plot the fact that they've seen it then a couple of the others was and it worked quite well because of that.

The fact that Rodney was affraid of Whales which didn't come out in Grace Under Pressure or Echoes got to me as well, why not just change it to a shark or something and change the reference to Jaws instead (Which RCC stated was the influence behind the scene as the link says his dad took him to see it and it scared him for years to come). But I think it would have fitted better in that respect imo.

I'm glad Keller got more of a role this episode though, it was good to see her character get fleshed out more and be more of the team. All the both episodes we've seen her in so far up until this point she was fairly rushed, so it was good to have her more relaxed and a bigger part of the team imo.

And getting rid of Heightmeyer? Why, what did that add? She was a character that could have returned in future episodes, but not one enough to make an emotional impact on the audience really. It yelled off pointless to me and it would have been good to see her in it more, but oh well. Guess she's added to the list then biggrin.gif

Anyway overall, yeah I liked it, but I prefered Reunion tbh, but I think I need to watch it again. I did like it though, just feel a couple of aspects may have been a little off. But I think that may be helped by that second viewing.

This post has been edited by Invisible Painting: Oct 20th 2007, 6:58 AM
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wonderland
post Oct 20th 2007, 7:43 AM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Oct 20th 2007, 1:13 AM) *

What was the episode with the device they used to get John into Rodney's head?

The crystal thing came from 'Cold Lazarus'. The mind link device was from 'Gamekeeper' and going into each other's subconscious was 'Avatar', which also used the gamekeeper pod-thingies. You got a very brief glimpse of them and it was explained by Sam that the technology had been advanced by research.
And Shep and McKay doing 'are you you?' was Jack and Daniel from 'Spirits'.

This post has been edited by wonderland: Oct 20th 2007, 7:44 AM
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jrv
post Oct 20th 2007, 8:16 AM
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It looks like I am the only one that thought this was just another bad episode. Here are my thoughts.

-I don't like filler episodes, especially when they kill someone off for no reason. They killed that woman for no reason other than to make the situation seem dangerous.

-I'm really trying to give Dr. Keller a chance but she just isn't doing it for me. She still seems to young. And why does she seem so unsure about even the simplest medical tasks? That is how she is coming off to me.

-Is this what we should be expecting from Amanda Tapping? Her character seems like nothing more than a way to bring SG-1 fans over to Atlantis. I mean she has been in a few episodes and she seems pointless. At least with Dr. Wier she was established as the expedition leader. And I know this is probably mean to say but is Amanda Tapping pregnant during these episodes? I keep seeing what looks like a baby bump they are trying to hide.

So those are my thoughts. These episodes are really going nowhere and they are in danger of losing me as a viewer. If the season continues like this I doubt they will get picked up for another. I would bet that they already lost some of the audience.
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post Oct 20th 2007, 9:35 AM
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I thought this episode was really really fantastic. I don't mind all the realations to SG1 at all, they kinda nice once in a while so you don't keep getting lost.

- McKay moments last night were CLASSIC. It was soooo good. I love McKay, his character is turning out so fabulously. Ronan did a brilliant job in this episode too. Wow. I love how everyone was like divising that plan to get the entity out of Rodneys head and the whole time he was "What?"

- So, who really likes Sam in Atlantis? I hardly like to see Sam as the leader of SG1 in season 8 and whatnot. Why do you think that Cameron was brought on to lead SG1? In any case, her being there just doesn't feel right. Even though I wasn't a die hard Weir fan, I miss her. I miss her a lot. I don't like how it feels as though the whole show is being changed and edited, and it doesn't feel like Atlantis anymore.

- Shout out to Lorne. I love this guy! I swear to you I watch every episode scared as hell he's the next one to die. He did a really good job in this epiosde too, he's so awesome. We need more of him. </ unneeded opinions>

- Keller is doing a really good job, and I mean it. I like her and I like that she is still so timid and doesn't feel good enough for the job...but I miss that Scottish lad. Becket had a certain aspect that I want back too. Bring back Weir, Becket...and Ford. Let's go, let's have Atlantis back.

- JOE WAS REALLY GOOD AT ACTING THIS EPISODE. When the dreams first started happening I was really worried he was gonna goof up and make it looks pitiful, but he stepped up BIG TIME. It wasn't bad the whole Sheppard-Sheppard fight scene was something else. It was fantastic, amazing, and wonderful. They did a good job with making it look real. Kudos, Stargate, Kudos.

This episode was soo good, I'm really upset that I only got to watch it once. It made up for the all the crappy episodes that have been going down lately. In any case, I really hope they keep going with that pase and turn up the volume. I am still routing for Atlantis.
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cosmos
post Oct 20th 2007, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE(magnavox @ Oct 20th 2007, 2:19 AM) *

Poor Rodney and his fear of whales? It seems odd that they bring this up now seeing as both Grace Under Pressure and Echoes involved whales, and yet it was never brought up as a pertinent fear of Mckay's. Moby Dick, LOL! And his dream about Sam, lemon chicken and Zelenka, ...and then he's eaten by a whale, hehe.


People don't just go telling their worst fears to other people in every chance they get (it seemed as if Rodney let it go accidentally now that everybody were telling their bad dreams) and it was established before that the previous creatures were fishes. whale-like but fishes nonetheless. Having said that in Grace Under Pressure Rodney seemed genuinely afraid even more on the notion that maybe there was a whale circling outside his jumper.

QUOTE(magnavox @ Oct 20th 2007, 2:19 AM) *

* McKay's dream. Of all the random things! ROFL. The rowboat...the whale... "Nice whale, nice whale, you're my friend...don't eat me!" And the clown! "I hate clowns!" And of course, in the end they were eaten by the whale! Hehe...

I found interesting that though the surrounding was obviously taken from Rodney's mind, the clown was taken from Shep's mind. I liked the hint, that the evil Shep was picking the brain of good Shep through his link with Rodney, leading to changing hosts altogether from Rodney to good Sheppard.

QUOTE(magnavox @ Oct 20th 2007, 2:19 AM) *

* Sheppard's dream. Shep vs Shep - awesome. I really enjoyed the fight scene. Question is, and I bring back what I mentioned before, are the fears portrayed in their dreams those of the character or are they general and imparted on them by evil!Shep? If they are those of the character, does Shep fear himself above all else? His actions, decisions, failures? It's an interesting thought seeing as he was just in a position of authority and command at the beginning of the season.

I liked the fight in the end and I agree that the dreams probably portrayed their fears but on another note visually I think they have missed a chance to make the fight look better. I think it would have added to the scene to visually see how much stronger the bad Shep was and how life threatening this fight was for good Shep by having the injuries in the virtual fight translate into the real Shep lying on that bed (eg spit of blood or sth). The way it was played I didn't feel the urgency that was presumed so that Rodney will heroically go in to help him.


All in all, another good episode for me as I don't mind homages, rips and whatnot as long as they are integrated nicely into a new episode and I think that was the case here. rolleyes.gif
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post Oct 20th 2007, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE(Arcady @ Oct 19th 2007, 10:56 PM) *

I liked this episode better when it was the three SG-1 episodes they ripped off to make it.

I actually did as well.

I loved the "I am a science team" line. It was great.

I thought everyone's fears were probably real. DR. Keller unsure of herself in a new galaxy, fearing that someone will have a problem that she in incapable of dealing with.

Rodney stuck in his own fears from childhood.

Ronan afraid of being alone again, and on the run.

Teyla afraid of the Wraith.

And John afraid that he cant save his team members, and that something he did would cause their death.

From the commercials, I thought this ep was going to be much closer to Cold Lazarus, but I was pleasantly suprised. I liked the twist, but I feel that it propbably coulda been switched to week 5 and considered sort of a holloween episode, given the proximity and the creepiness, and the gore with Dr. Keller's fear.
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Revan
post Oct 20th 2007, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(IndyJan @ Oct 20th 2007, 7:20 AM) *

The first episode was Lazarus. Then they used Gamekeeper from Season 2 and finally Avatar from season 8. The Gamekeeper was the first episode about the VR. Then in Avatar they had Daniel enter Teal'c's dream to help him. Sam alluded to them.

I also loved John's comment about clowns, "I hate clowns." As an adult I have learned that quite a few people are turned off by clowns.

As far as Sam, I think she did a pretty good job of leading and making decisions. She's on Atlantis to oversee and to lead. She didn't go off-world. She had Shep's team do that. In regards to the low cut top, that didn't bother me as much as the actual Atlantis uniform just didn't look right on her. I guess no one wears an actual military uniform on Atlantis. They have their own design and that is what everyone wears.

Well the device in this episode didn't look much like thos standing beds from Gamekeeper. And I didn't see much similarity to Avatar.

Clowns are weird.

Well the SGC uniforms are baggy, whereas these new uniforms are more form-fitting, which is different for Carter.
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Ziu
post Oct 20th 2007, 1:01 PM
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TPTB are continueing to rehash SG-1 plots. All you fans out there shall not be disappointed if SGA will be cancelled after this season.
I am just mystified that MGM can not see what the idiots in charge are doing to the Stargate franchise. Unless MGM does not care about TV anymore and wants to continue making movies for DVD. king.gif
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Pitry
post Oct 20th 2007, 1:06 PM
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Ah, fianlly. Niow that's more like it.
Yes, derivative again, but as Indy said, at least RCC can make it work.

Loved Rodney's nightmare! The clown! smile.gif T;was also a nice touch that Sheppard's nightmare starts with Rodney dying.

Heitmeyer's dead! Hooray!
Sorry. If there's one cahracter I really hate on SGA... I mean, I ahte Sheppard with a passion, but I guess I learned to lvie with him. Heitmeyer,on the other hand... eurgh. So hooray. : Although I dind't ;ike the Weir-esque speech Carter gave. Doesn't suit her.

IT was fun trying to eralise what's a dream in advance..

And Ronon's dream was also quite creepy. See, now that's nice character development. When he's faced wioth his worst nightmare, he doesn't dream of the wraith, but being buried alive. Quite a lot more character development than last week's! Shame it wasn't teh same with Teyla. She's afraid of the Wraith.... we know.

So, generally, Pitry approves! let's hope the rest of the season looks more like Doppleganger and less like the first three epsiodes.
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post Oct 20th 2007, 1:25 PM
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QUOTE(IndyJan @ Oct 20th 2007, 7:20 AM) *

The dreams I believe were showing the major fears of each individual. I loved them telling Ronon about the movie Alien, and his comment, "I have to see this movie."

I loved that this was a joint effort in finding out what had happened, how to combat it and how to save Atlantis and as many people as possible. I so enjoyed not having Rodney be the arrogant one and saving the day. I also liked that when Rodney wants to be "the science team," and when he doesn't want to be "the science team," was done in perfect Rodneyism! wink.gif


I admit, I'm a Rodney fan but yeah. Relying too heavily, which I think Atlantis does to the extreme, on 2 characters always saving the day is tedious. Between McKay and Sheppard, it's downright annoying and taints my enjoyment of the show. My point in relation to this quote from IndyJan is that this time it was nice to see everyone working together in a team-like fashion. Even if they did relegate Teyla to the casting-looks-background and Ronan to the idiot.

I also loved Zelenka's comment in the isolation room - he always uses Rodney's first name when something bad's happening. McKay's reaction was pretty standard McKay, too. As was the 'friendly' bet between them in the beginning.

Ronan's movie comment: too funny, and it goes to his character that a scary dream is just that. I'm sure he has others all the time. And Teyla's comment on the strange rituals 'on your planet' was great, too. Shows the differences between the Atlantis team and the Pegasus Galaxy that they don't explore nearly enough.

All in all, it was an ok episode.
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Revan
post Oct 20th 2007, 3:10 PM
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QUOTE(Pitry @ Oct 20th 2007, 2:06 PM) *

And Ronon's dream was also quite creepy. See, now that's nice character development. When he's faced wioth his worst nightmare, he doesn't dream of the wraith, but being buried alive. Quite a lot more character development than last week's! Shame it wasn't teh same with Teyla. She's afraid of the Wraith.... we know.

Teyla's dream wasn't that simple though. It was first about her feelings for John, then about her father being killed by the Wraith, and then about one she cares about (John), becoming a mutant Wraith creature. It may have been DopplegangerSheppard contolling her dream, but it had to ring true for her, or it wouldn't have produced the intended emotional and neuro-chemical response.
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post Oct 20th 2007, 4:10 PM
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QUOTE(cosmos @ Oct 20th 2007, 10:41 AM) *

People don't just go telling their worst fears to other people in every chance they get (it seemed as if Rodney let it go accidentally now that everybody were telling their bad dreams) and it was established before that the previous creatures were fishes. whale-like but fishes nonetheless. Having said that in Grace Under Pressure Rodney seemed genuinely afraid even more on the notion that maybe there was a whale circling outside his jumper.


True, but he didn't act as though he had a phobia of them. Hell, he even named one Sam in Echoes.

QUOTE
I found interesting that though the surrounding was obviously taken from Rodney's mind, the clown was taken from Shep's mind. I liked the hint, that the evil Shep was picking the brain of good Shep through his link with Rodney, leading to changing hosts altogether from Rodney to good Sheppard.


Actually, I thought the clown was a part of Rodney's mind as Shep asked him what was so messed up about his head, and he pointed to the clown. From that I assume he's dreamt of clowns before. Perhaps Shep just shares his hatred of clowns, or it's another obscure movie reference...
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Revan
post Oct 20th 2007, 4:22 PM
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QUOTE(magnavox @ Oct 20th 2007, 5:10 PM) *

True, but he didn't act as though he had a phobia of them. Hell, he even named one Sam in Echoes.

Actually, I thought the clown was a part of Rodney's mind as Shep asked him what was so messed up about his head, and he pointed to the clown. From that I assume he's dreamt of clowns before. Perhaps Shep just shares his hatred of clowns, or it's another obscure movie reference...

That is one way to defeat a phobia. Perhaps he was trying to overcome it.

Ever see the movie It?
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Magnavox
post Oct 20th 2007, 4:50 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Oct 20th 2007, 4:22 PM) *

That is one way to defeat a phobia. Perhaps he was trying to overcome it.


But clearly he didn't if he's still having the same nightmares since childhood. His actions in Echoes contradict those in this episode. It would appear his fear of whales has escalated since.

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Ever see the movie It?


Years ago, I can't remember the storyline off the top of my head.
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post Oct 20th 2007, 5:00 PM
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QUOTE(Revan @ Oct 20th 2007, 1:48 PM) *

Well the device in this episode didn't look much like thos standing beds from Gamekeeper. And I didn't see much similarity to Avatar.

You only got one really quick cut shot to someone's hands, maybe Bill Lee?, manipulating something on one of the pods.
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BigusDickus
post Oct 21st 2007, 7:28 AM
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Another good episode for me smile.gif Some good funny moments.
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ancient01
post Oct 21st 2007, 7:45 PM
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I wasn't all that impressed with this one. It was way too blatently copied from SG1. Sam even had how many comments in the show that admitted it?? Hopefully next week will be better...
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