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> Square stargate, possible?
JTMAG1
post Dec 23rd 2006, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE(Vill @ Dec 23rd 2006, 11:55 AM) *

I figure since the ancients are so "perfect", then they'd know the ideal shape for a stargate anyway - maybe the circular shape is the ultimate choice in a series of experiments they did with different shapes when first designing the stargate? biggrin.gif

I can't argue with logic like that.

Besides, when Rodney says that the stargate is a certain size for a reason. It's probably a certain shape for a reason as well.
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KillerMarv
post Dec 23rd 2006, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Dec 23rd 2006, 7:14 PM) *

I can't argue with logic like that.

Besides, when Rodney says that the stargate is a certain size for a reason. It's probably a certain shape for a reason as well.


Yeah, and I tried to explain that reason a few thousand times in this thread already... You can call it speculation if you want, but I call it speculation with physics. 1.gif
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JTMAG1
post Dec 23rd 2006, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Dec 23rd 2006, 12:25 PM) *

Yeah, and I tried to explain that reason a few thousand times in this thread already... You can call it speculation if you want, but I call it speculation with physics. 1.gif

lol, speculation with physics.... that's the best kind

EDIT: The second best kind.. because I like speculation with Logic.

This post has been edited by JTMAG1: Dec 23rd 2006, 12:31 PM
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Nabuah234
post Dec 24th 2006, 2:32 AM
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i'm not judging the perfection of the circle as it having all the points at equal distance form the centre. My point is that if the ancients managed to build a round gate, they must have tried other shapes too, including square. that means it's possible to make one, even if it isnt practical.
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KillerMarv
post Dec 24th 2006, 8:30 AM
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QUOTE(Nabuah234 @ Dec 24th 2006, 9:32 AM) *

i'm not judging the perfection of the circle as it having all the points at equal distance form the centre. My point is that if the ancients managed to build a round gate, they must have tried other shapes too, including square. that means it's possible to make one, even if it isnt practical.


Isn't there a lot of speculation into what you've just said? How would you know what the Ancients tried before making the Stargate... ? Maybe they made a lot of calculations and observed how the particles would react using those calculations in different virtual shapes, before wasting resources on building carelessly. Or maybe they simulated the effects. We use programs to simulate circuitry all the time before making any device. I think the Ancients could have done the same about maintaining a stable wormhole.

In terms of making sure the objects or people sent thorugh the gate arriving safe at the destination... Ummm, I guess, that's another story. Who knows how many mice perished while the Ancients were "experimenting". whistling.gif
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JTMAG1
post Dec 24th 2006, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE(Nabuah234 @ Dec 24th 2006, 2:32 AM) *

i'm not judging the perfection of the circle as it having all the points at equal distance form the centre. My point is that if the ancients managed to build a round gate, they must have tried other shapes too, including square. that means it's possible to make one, even if it isnt practical.

When you get to that level of advancement, I wouldn't think that you need to experiment on theories like that. At our level of technology and science we know that bubbles are sheres and not cubes becasue of conservation of energy. A bubble uses the least about of energy to stay in tact by forming a sphere. And in 2 dimensions, the same rules apply. A circle is the most efficient shape.
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groza
post Dec 31st 2006, 4:57 AM
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According to Carter (in ep 5x14 - 48 hours) the stargate stores the transfered matter in an internal buffer until the entire entity (e.g. a person) has been transfered through the wormhole.

Now, wormholes do not have buffers, stargates do. This implies that the event horizon which we see (or do not see - we only see "fluctuations" at the event horizon, as stated in "Children of the Gods") is not the event horizon of the wormhole that transfers matter to the other stargate.

There must be three stages to the gate travel:
1) matter transfer into stargate buffer (decomposition of matter)
2) matter/energy transfer between two stargates' buffers
3) matter reconstitution (from destination stargate's buffer)

Since the "visible" event horizon is NOT that of the actual wormhole then there is no need to make it any shape in particular. To decompose/restore matter any shape would do.

Oh, and since the wormhole is an "extradimensional conduit" then we really should not interpret the "shape" of its event horizon in terms of Cartesian coordinates. Also remeber that topologically a circle, a triangle and a square are all equivalent.

BTW many posts in this thread abuse the expression "event horizon", so here is a quote from wikipedia:
QUOTE
In general relativity, event horizon is a general term for a boundary in spacetime, defined with respect to an observer, beyond which events cannot affect the observer. Light emitted beyond the horizon can never reach the observer, and anything that passes through the horizon from the observer's side is never seen again.

So, an event horizon is not made up of anything and does not desintegrate matter.
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JTMAG1
post Dec 31st 2006, 6:19 PM
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QUOTE(groza @ Dec 31st 2006, 4:57 AM) *

According to Carter (in ep 5x14 - 48 hours) the stargate stores the transfered matter in an internal buffer until the entire entity (e.g. a person) has been transfered through the wormhole.

Now, wormholes do not have buffers, stargates do. This implies that the event horizon which we see (or do not see - we only see "fluctuations" at the event horizon, as stated in "Children of the Gods") is not the event horizon of the wormhole that transfers matter to the other stargate.

There must be three stages to the gate travel:
1) matter transfer into stargate buffer (decomposition of matter)
2) matter/energy transfer between two stargates' buffers
3) matter reconstitution (from destination stargate's buffer)

Since the "visible" event horizon is NOT that of the actual wormhole then there is no need to make it any shape in particular. To decompose/restore matter any shape would do.

Oh, and since the wormhole is an "extradimensional conduit" then we really should not interpret the "shape" of its event horizon in terms of Cartesian coordinates. Also remeber that topologically a circle, a triangle and a square are all equivalent.

BTW many posts in this thread abuse the expression "event horizon", so here is a quote from wikipedia:

So, an event horizon is not made up of anything and does not desintegrate matter.

I believe Mckay tells us that the size/shape of the gate is not arbitrary, but directly related to the amount of energy required to create a stable wormhole.

I think we use the term "event horizon" very close to the way that it is used int the show, which would mean that it's not being abused considering the subject matter.
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groza
post Jan 2nd 2007, 6:27 AM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 1st 2007, 12:19 AM) *

I believe Mckay tells us that the size/shape of the gate is not arbitrary, but directly related to the amount of energy required to create a stable wormhole.

In which episode does he say that?

I believe that the stargate can be square because the "puddle" is not the event horizon of the actual wormhole.
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Revan
post Jan 2nd 2007, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE(groza @ Jan 2nd 2007, 6:27 AM) *

In which episode does he say that?

I believe that the stargate can be square because the "puddle" is not the event horizon of the actual wormhole.

1003 Pegasus Project

The puddle is the gate's mechanism to transfer energy as matter to pure energy.
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cegrocks
post Jan 5th 2007, 9:26 PM
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but when you look when a gate activates. It comes from every point on the inner side of the gate towards the center (where the kawoosh is then formed (p.s I never understood why the kawoosh formed, but that's for another post)). So it comes from the inner area of the torus (a donut shaped thing) to the center. If you had a square, you would have to change the speed for the energy coming to the center, otherwise u would have some areas arrive at the center first. Therefore it would take a lot more energy to regulate it all. So for those that only speak english: I guess it is possible to make a square gate, but it would suck a lot more energy (but that doesn't make it impossible)

any1 understand that? I don't think I did, I am kinda babbeling
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JTMAG1
post Jan 5th 2007, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE(cegrocks @ Jan 5th 2007, 9:26 PM) *

but when you look when a gate activates. It comes from every point on the inner side of the gate towards the center (where the kawoosh is then formed (p.s I never understood why the kawoosh formed, but that's for another post)). So it comes from the inner area of the torus (a donut shaped thing) to the center. If you had a square, you would have to change the speed for the energy coming to the center, otherwise u would have some areas arrive at the center first. Therefore it would take a lot more energy to regulate it all. So for those that only speak english: I guess it is possible to make a square gate, but it would suck a lot more energy (but that doesn't make it impossible)

any1 understand that? I don't think I did, I am kinda babbeling

Yeah, I understood that. Marv and I both said that months ago, and I even made pictures.
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OdinisThor'sDad
post Jan 6th 2007, 4:31 AM
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QUOTE(JTMAG1 @ Jan 6th 2007, 12:09 PM) *

Yeah, I understood that. Marv and I both said that months ago, and I even made pictures.



Next time use crayons. Children understand crayons 1.gif
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JTMAG1
post Jan 6th 2007, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE(OdinisThor'sDad @ Jan 6th 2007, 4:31 AM) *

Next time use crayons. Children understand crayons 1.gif

I did try crayons, but my monitor got all messed up. laugh.gif
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KillerMarv
post Jan 6th 2007, 1:00 PM
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QUOTE(cegrocks @ Jan 6th 2007, 4:26 AM) *

but when you look when a gate activates. It comes from every point on the inner side of the gate towards the center (where the kawoosh is then formed (p.s I never understood why the kawoosh formed, but that's for another post)). So it comes from the inner area of the torus (a donut shaped thing) to the center. If you had a square, you would have to change the speed for the energy coming to the center, otherwise u would have some areas arrive at the center first. Therefore it would take a lot more energy to regulate it all. So for those that only speak english: I guess it is possible to make a square gate, but it would suck a lot more energy (but that doesn't make it impossible)

any1 understand that? I don't think I did, I am kinda babbeling


And to add this as I already said it about a thousand times... After the whole kawoosh thingy, you would have to maintain the Stargate open. Thus, you would have to maintain the flow of particles in a way in which they don't interact too much and release or lose energy. If they don't spin, they do interact, and the wormhole becomes unstable.

Odinis, how does a crayon work actually? I looked for a button to start that thing, but I can't find one... unsure.gif

This post has been edited by KillerMarv: Jan 6th 2007, 1:05 PM
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cegrocks
post Jan 6th 2007, 9:21 PM
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heh i have a tablet biggrin.gif yay tablet computers

oh and I think you need to boot the computer up in DOS
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Shadowstorm92
post Jan 6th 2007, 9:24 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 6th 2007, 12:00 PM) *

And to add this as I already said it about a thousand times... After the whole kawoosh thingy, you would have to maintain the Stargate open. Thus, you would have to maintain the flow of particles in a way in which they don't interact too much and release or lose energy. If they don't spin, they do interact, and the wormhole becomes unstable.

How do you know these things??? blink.gif

QUOTE
Odinis, how does a crayon work actually? I looked for a button to start that thing, but I can't find one... unsure.gif

Are you talking about those things that are made of coloured wax and hardened into the form of a three and five-eighths inch pencil that one may sometimes doodle with? huh.gif
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JTMAG1
post Jan 6th 2007, 9:55 PM
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QUOTE(Shadowstorm92 @ Jan 6th 2007, 9:24 PM) *

How do you know these things??? blink.gif

Because he's Marv, he just knows these things.
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OdinisThor'sDad
post Jan 9th 2007, 7:46 AM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 7th 2007, 3:00 AM) *

Odinis, how does a crayon work actually? I looked for a button to start that thing, but I can't find one... unsure.gif


Quite simple. Give a craton to a 7 year old kid. Tell them your 'theory' about how a circle is the perfect 2-D shape and then get the kid to draw a diagram. I prefer cause it's bright and it's a warning color...but whatever the kid wants.

With said picture, scan it and post the image here. Then maybe people will understand the whole cirlce thing.

In life you can make a triagular (pyramid) or even a square (cube) bubble, but it does take a hell of a lot more time, effort materials......

I imagine the same would be true for a stargate, but why wold you want a square one?
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KillerMarv
post Jan 9th 2007, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE(OdinisThor'sDad @ Jan 9th 2007, 2:46 PM) *

I imagine the same would be true for a stargate, but why wold you want a square one?


Easy... People want to look at it like it is some sort of TV screen or computer screen, or even window... They like seeing familiar objects in unfamiliar situations... laugh.gif
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JTMAG1
post Jan 9th 2007, 1:16 PM
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QUOTE(KillerMarv @ Jan 9th 2007, 11:44 AM) *

Easy... People want to look at it like it is some sort of TV screen or computer screen, or even window... They like seeing familiar objects in unfamiliar situations... laugh.gif

Yeah, it would have been funny if jack used it as a projection screen and watched movies in that "groundhog day" type ep whose name I can't remember at the time.
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