Will Asgard ascend? Options

[Dafmeister]

Yes, Eart could create Asgard bodies but as we saw in 'Covenant', they had no Asgard conciuosness in them. The body created by Coulson was only an empty shell. Since all the Asgard were killed, creating a body would do no good if the monds aren't there to be placed in them.

[Revan]

Yes, Eart could create Asgard bodies but as we saw in 'Covenant', they had no Asgard conciuosness in them. The body created by Coulson was only an empty shell. Since all the Asgard were killed, creating a body would do no good if the monds aren't there to be placed in them.

A body could be created and taught... though that would do little good...

[Dafmeister]

Even Sam said that it must have taken a huge effort to just teach the clone to walk though. All the clone had was it's lower brain functions so teaching it would be extremely difficult.

[JTMAG1]

Even Sam said that it must have taken a huge effort to just teach the clone to walk though. All the clone had was it's lower brain functions so teaching it would be extremely difficult.

Yes, the Asguard have intentionally designed their DNA so that they could easily download their minds into the new bodies. They wouldn't want the body to be able to grow on it's own and think for itself.

[Revan]

Yes, the Asguard have intentionally designed their DNA so that they could easily download their minds into the new bodies. They wouldn't want the body to be able to grow on it's own and think for itself.

That is counter-intuitive. They designed a mind with a great capacity for knowledge, etc... One would think it capable of learning as well.

[Dafmeister]

Why would they do that? The clones are there for existing Asgard minds to be downloaded into not fo them to develop into another Asgard. Coulson could only just about teahc the clone to walk because the lower brain has little capacity for learning.

[JTMAG1]

That is counter-intuitive. They designed a mind with a great capacity for knowledge, etc... One would think it capable of learning as well.

You're right. it was counter-intuitive. That's why they are in the trouble that they're in. They decided not to grow their society anymore. No more reproduction. If the clone's body had a counsciousness, they would be killing that person when they downloaded their minds over that person's...

[cosmos]

Just a random thought. Does anyone know if Hermia, the Asguard helping in Pegasus shared the fate of his people?

Common sense though suggests that not all Asguard would have willingly chosen to go up like this and somehow I don't thing the High Council would have ordered to be forcibly returned. We have seen that the Asguard pretty much follow the decisions taken from their High Council almost passively but we also have seen Asguard that are not behaving as such like Loki for instance.

It would make sense for everyone to return if there was indeed a backup plan, to store their consciousness on a virtual environment for example. Something that absolutely needed to be silent about and choose a secret place.

[Dafmeister]

I believe that he is dead. Spoilers for season 4 of Atlantis say that inone episode Sam is doing something around the workstation Heimdall (obviously a confusion between Heimdall and Hermiod) used to work at on Daedalus. I don't see that TPTB would kill all the Asgard but let Hermiod survive.

[poundpuppy29]

In my AU the Ancients help their old Ally and Ascend them right before what happened.

[greynephilimrisingangel]

Hello. I got stuck at work and forgot to record the episode being aired today (I know it involved Adria, but I don't know if it involved the Asgard). So I don't know if people are discussing the episode that I missed today or what is suppose to be the series finale (why they felt the need to wait months in between the season to show the rest I have no idea).

Anyway, I was looking for the spoiler so I would know what happened and I came across this forum, and I felt the need to sign up and throw in my two-sense (or two cents because that may be all that it's worth). But here goes:

I think from an emotional standpoint of everyone who has loved the show and fallen in love with the characters and concepts it's a very hard idea to accept that a particular character (or a whole race that's been almost represented like a handful of characters) might be killed off. But from a writer's standpoint, that result ends up not being quite as important. It'd be nice to imagine the Asgard still out there protecting developing civilizations after the show ends. But a show that defies reality can only defy it so much.

Though it was never made perfectly clear, it was suggested that Oma wasn't helping much of anyone anymore. She made a choice to, instead of pay for her mistake, face it. The episode where Daniel died again aboard the Replicator ship and was at the "Ascendant Way-Station" as I like to call it. The coffee house where he is re-introduced to Anubis and Oma is a waitress trying to convince Daniel to ascend again. She takes an option she hadn't previously entertained: facing Anubis, who had tricked her into ascending him in the first place.

Now, according to the episode, there was a lot of Goa'uld banter about how she couldn't destroy him, yada yada yada. And she replies with something to the effect of, " I don't need to," and a conversation that suggests she only needs to fight him and keep him busy and away from the universe.

I believe it was in a following episode (after Daniel ascended and returned naked and finally got some clothes again), where he's speaking to O'Neill (maybe it was the episode where Mitchell was introduced) where he says something to the effect of, "It felt like someone was watching out for us before and now it feels like we're on our own."

Also, bear in mind that Oma was the defacto leader of those who followed "her path" or believed in similar things. And while it's true that cutting off the head doesn't necessarily mean that it's dead, it can be safely said that usually without a leader, those who followed aren't as quick to continue following in their leaders' absence.

So while it's possible that maybe they ascended (because, after all, in the SG universe, near anything is possible), chances are small. The other Ancients have the rule that you ascend naturally or by your intelligence and technology. You don't get help. Put yourself in a position to deviate from evolution towards ascending or not come up with the technology on your own, then it's "tough tamales". The Asgard basically said over several seasons that they had sought a form of immortality by engineering bodies they could keep creating. Perhaps it was short-sightedness on their part, but get to the point where you seek immortality and cannot procreate, eventually the numbers are going to shrink, shrivel, and die off. If you can't reproduce, then the numbers of your species plateau. After that, they start heading down hill. Perhaps slowly, but for absolute certain.


Now here's where I re-iterate my point from earlier: the Asgard ascending or dying off is NOT important. At all. They began and continued and apparently ended as being the caretakers of humanity. The guardians who held back repression and enslavement. And then Earthlings come along learning and exploring. They defeat an enemy that by all fair accounts, they probably shouldn't have. They did that with luck, intelligence, and ingenuity and freed those whom the Asgard couldn't. They protected others in the absence of the Asgard (like when they were busy with the Replicators). They in fact, sought out a way in which they could put an end to Replicators in their galaxy as well as the Asgards'. In a matter of years they accelerated from being the "young race" on its way to becoming "the 5th race" ( I believe Thor said) to being the power that precipitated the downfall and destruction of "Gods".

From a writer's standpoint, the Asgard were the old guard. They had grown old, tired. An old man defending the castle gates must choose a successor. So more or less, them dying off and in a manner that I am assuming had some amount of nobility to it, was a way of passing on the keys to the castle to a younger, newer guard. Their time was over as the second evolution of humanity was just beginning. Humanity rises to assume their role.

The Stargate Universe has had many points and suggestions to make. Philosophical, sci-fi, possibilities, etc. But even from the movie onward through the series, there's been one particular point that has always been subtle, yet consistent. That point is that humanity is growing. It is learning. From a people cowering in caves before so-called "gods" they have come far, "harnessed the power of the atom", and eventually wiped out the powerhold those "gods" had over the rest of the universe. And then, they defeated enemies that even the gods (good or bad) couldn't defeat on their own. They have grown and are continuing to grow. The show was never about the Universe and the humans of Earth. It was about the humans of Earth going out into the Universe, growing, and eventually finding their place and taking it.

I'm sorry if I sound preachy, and I'm sorry if this turned into an essay. But I don't think that what really happened to the Asgard should be focused on so much. They played their part. I really do think this is one of those situations where people are looking at it so literally and letting their emotions try and convince them "that it isn't really so", "they can still be saved somehow". The show is coming to an end and the Asgard played their part to the very end. So perhaps it's best to stand back and look at it overall. What did their presence really mean? What does their passing symbolize? And once one has decided what that symbol really is, then the possibilities of how the Asgard might have survived in a story that has come to a close don't really matter as much. It's like a history class. At the end of a particular point in time, we are left to ask what it all meant, from beginning to end. Watching a tv show is kind of the same way. We are no longer looking at the future events of this particular story line or "history lesson". There is no future. There is only the past and what we can take away from that.

Once again, I apologize. And thanks for letting me speak my peace.

[KillerMarv]

Now here's where I re-iterate my point from earlier: the Asgard ascending or dying off is NOT important. At all. They began and continued and apparently ended as being the caretakers of humanity. The guardians who held back repression and enslavement. And then Earthlings come along learning and exploring. They defeat an enemy that by all fair accounts, they probably shouldn't have. They did that with luck, intelligence, and ingenuity and freed those whom the Asgard couldn't. They protected others in the absence of the Asgard (like when they were busy with the Replicators). They in fact, sought out a way in which they could put an end to Replicators in their galaxy as well as the Asgards'. In a matter of years they accelerated from being the "young race" on its way to becoming "the 5th race" ( I believe Thor said) to being the power that precipitated the downfall and destruction of "Gods".

From a writer's standpoint, the Asgard were the old guard. They had grown old, tired. An old man defending the castle gates must choose a successor. So more or less, them dying off and in a manner that I am assuming had some amount of nobility to it, was a way of passing on the keys to the castle to a younger, newer guard. Their time was over as the second evolution of humanity was just beginning. Humanity rises to assume their role.

The Stargate Universe has had many points and suggestions to make. Philosophical, sci-fi, possibilities, etc. But even from the movie onward through the series, there's been one particular point that has always been subtle, yet consistent. That point is that humanity is growing. It is learning. From a people cowering in caves before so-called "gods" they have come far, "harnessed the power of the atom", and eventually wiped out the powerhold those "gods" had over the rest of the universe. And then, they defeated enemies that even the gods (good or bad) couldn't defeat on their own. They have grown and are continuing to grow. The show was never about the Universe and the humans of Earth. It was about the humans of Earth going out into the Universe, growing, and eventually finding their place and taking it.

That is quite a good point. I must say that I have thought that the last episode of SG-1 can be viewed exactly like "changing of the guard". We have indeed accomplished a lot in such a short while, and now we can do even more. Although you made quite a long post, and took quite a lot for me to read it, I understand and agree with every word.

I guess that people might agree with the loss of the Asgard, but they still don't agree with the way they ended their "reign" as an advanced race (with mass suicide), or with the fact that, although they were their close allies, none of Ancients might have ascended the Asgard.

[JTMAG1]

Hello. I got stuck at work and forgot to record the episode being aired today (I know it involved Adria, but I don't know if it involved the Asgard). So I don't know if people are discussing the episode that I missed today or what is suppose to be the series finale (why they felt the need to wait months in between the season to show the rest I have no idea).

Anyway, I was looking for the spoiler so I would know what happened and I came across this forum, and I felt the need to sign up and throw in my two-sense (or two cents because that may be all that it's worth). But here goes:

» Click to Show Spoiler «

I think from an emotional standpoint of everyone who has loved the show and fallen in love with the characters and concepts it's a very hard idea to accept that a particular character (or a whole race that's been almost represented like a handful of characters) might be killed off. But from a writer's standpoint, that result ends up not being quite as important. It'd be nice to imagine the Asgard still out there protecting developing civilizations after the show ends. But a show that defies reality can only defy it so much.

Though it was never made perfectly clear, it was suggested that Oma wasn't helping much of anyone anymore. She made a choice to, instead of pay for her mistake, face it. The episode where Daniel died again aboard the Replicator ship and was at the "Ascendant Way-Station" as I like to call it. The coffee house where he is re-introduced to Anubis and Oma is a waitress trying to convince Daniel to ascend again. She takes an option she hadn't previously entertained: facing Anubis, who had tricked her into ascending him in the first place.

Now, according to the episode, there was a lot of Goa'uld banter about how she couldn't destroy him, yada yada yada. And she replies with something to the effect of, " I don't need to," and a conversation that suggests she only needs to fight him and keep him busy and away from the universe.

I believe it was in a following episode (after Daniel ascended and returned naked and finally got some clothes again), where he's speaking to O'Neill (maybe it was the episode where Mitchell was introduced) where he says something to the effect of, "It felt like someone was watching out for us before and now it feels like we're on our own."

Also, bear in mind that Oma was the defacto leader of those who followed "her path" or believed in similar things. And while it's true that cutting off the head doesn't necessarily mean that it's dead, it can be safely said that usually without a leader, those who followed aren't as quick to continue following in their leaders' absence.

So while it's possible that maybe they ascended (because, after all, in the SG universe, near anything is possible), chances are small. The other Ancients have the rule that you ascend naturally or by your intelligence and technology. You don't get help. Put yourself in a position to deviate from evolution towards ascending or not come up with the technology on your own, then it's "tough tamales". The Asgard basically said over several seasons that they had sought a form of immortality by engineering bodies they could keep creating. Perhaps it was short-sightedness on their part, but get to the point where you seek immortality and cannot procreate, eventually the numbers are going to shrink, shrivel, and die off. If you can't reproduce, then the numbers of your species plateau. After that, they start heading down hill. Perhaps slowly, but for absolute certain.
Now here's where I re-iterate my point from earlier: the Asgard ascending or dying off is NOT important. At all. They began and continued and apparently ended as being the caretakers of humanity. The guardians who held back repression and enslavement. And then Earthlings come along learning and exploring. They defeat an enemy that by all fair accounts, they probably shouldn't have. They did that with luck, intelligence, and ingenuity and freed those whom the Asgard couldn't. They protected others in the absence of the Asgard (like when they were busy with the Replicators). They in fact, sought out a way in which they could put an end to Replicators in their galaxy as well as the Asgards'. In a matter of years they accelerated from being the "young race" on its way to becoming "the 5th race" ( I believe Thor said) to being the power that precipitated the downfall and destruction of "Gods".

From a writer's standpoint, the Asgard were the old guard. They had grown old, tired. An old man defending the castle gates must choose a successor. So more or less, them dying off and in a manner that I am assuming had some amount of nobility to it, was a way of passing on the keys to the castle to a younger, newer guard. Their time was over as the second evolution of humanity was just beginning. Humanity rises to assume their role.

The Stargate Universe has had many points and suggestions to make. Philosophical, sci-fi, possibilities, etc. But even from the movie onward through the series, there's been one particular point that has always been subtle, yet consistent. That point is that humanity is growing. It is learning. From a people cowering in caves before so-called "gods" they have come far, "harnessed the power of the atom", and eventually wiped out the powerhold those "gods" had over the rest of the universe. And then, they defeated enemies that even the gods (good or bad) couldn't defeat on their own. They have grown and are continuing to grow. The show was never about the Universe and the humans of Earth. It was about the humans of Earth going out into the Universe, growing, and eventually finding their place and taking it.

I'm sorry if I sound preachy, and I'm sorry if this turned into an essay. But I don't think that what really happened to the Asgard should be focused on so much. They played their part. I really do think this is one of those situations where people are looking at it so literally and letting their emotions try and convince them "that it isn't really so", "they can still be saved somehow". The show is coming to an end and the Asgard played their part to the very end. So perhaps it's best to stand back and look at it overall. What did their presence really mean? What does their passing symbolize? And once one has decided what that symbol really is, then the possibilities of how the Asgard might have survived in a story that has come to a close don't really matter as much. It's like a history class. At the end of a particular point in time, we are left to ask what it all meant, from beginning to end. Watching a tv show is kind of the same way. We are no longer looking at the future events of this particular story line or "history lesson". There is no future. There is only the past and what we can take away from that.

Once again, I apologize. And thanks for letting me speak my peace.

I like a lot of what you had to say, espescially about the changing of the guard.

No first post is complete without having some of the good hilarious corrections. The phrase is two cents.

[Protoziggy90]

No first post is complete without having some of the good hilarious corrections. The phrase is two cents.

Oh don't tease him, he was absolutely right on everything he said. I agree completely. I had never really thought of the situation in such a way and it was a really enlightening read.

This post has been edited by Protoziggy90: Jun 16th 2007, 7:20 PM

[JTMAG1]

Oh don't tease him, he was absolutely right on everything he said. I agree completely. I had never really thought of the situation in such a way and it was a really enlightening read.

You're right, he did definitly have some good points, and I gave credit for them.

[Lagger]

yeah hes got lotsa good points... and i sorta understand now, that the asguard suiciding doesnt matter.

and in response to my earlier post about being able to create asgaurd bodies...

we have all their minds on the oddessy ... thor said so that she could call up a holographic representation of any asguard she wished... ? or something along those lines..

so we can recreate the bodies, and we have the asgaurd minds to work with, surely we could like dump em in, now they've given us their best and most advanced tech, etc ;)

as for its ability to learn.. i think they said they had the clone for 3 months.. it could walk in 3 months all they need to do is send it to school/ university, and sooner or later boom, new asgaurd (with human knowledge- but with asgaurd brain capabilities ) which is strange why the asgaurd didnt think of it that way?

they couldnt reproduce, but could create new asgaurd... and from those new ones they could have taught them to learn? woulda taken 15 years, but then hey presto.. wots this? a new asgaurd mind?

This post has been edited by Lagger: Jun 17th 2007, 9:16 AM

[JTMAG1]

yeah hes got lotsa good points... and i sorta understand now, that the asguard suiciding doesnt matter.

and in response to my earlier post about being able to create asgaurd bodies...

we have all their minds on the oddessy ... thor said so that she could call up a holographic representation of any asguard she wished... ? or something along those lines..

so we can recreate the bodies, and we have the asgaurd minds to work with, surely we could like dump em in, now they've given us their best and most advanced tech, etc ;)

We don't have all of the Asguard minds. We have the database of their knowledge, with the option using any of the Asguard as a holographic representation of the database.

When we were talking about the ability to have the Asguard download themselves into computers, we were talking about a previous episodes where Thor had his brain downloaded into a ship's computer.

as for its ability to learn.. i think they said they had the clone for 3 months.. it could walk in 3 months all they need to do is send it to school/ university, and sooner or later boom, new asgaurd (with human knowledge- but with asgaurd brain capabilities ) which is strange why the asgaurd didnt think of it that way?

Thor tells SG1 that they actually used the body to download an Asgard consciousness, which would lead me to speculate that after more than three months, there still wasn't a personality in that body.

they couldnt reproduce, but could create new asgaurd... and from those new ones they could have taught them to learn? woulda taken 15 years, but then hey presto.. wots this? a new asgaurd mind?

I believe it's been established that the Asgard are somewhat like the Tok'Ra in that their population is not growing.

[Dafmeister]

they couldnt reproduce, but could create new asgaurd... and from those new ones they could have taught them to learn? woulda taken 15 years, but then hey presto.. wots this? a new asgaurd mind?

You're forgetting that the Asgard they created would still be a clone and suffer from the same genetic degradation as the rest of their race. Unless they could have found a way to sexually reproduce again, the Asgard were a dead race. They had one final shot but it backfired and led to the rapid degeneration of their genetic code and so they killed themselves.

[JTMAG1]

You're forgetting that the Asgard they created would still be a clone and suffer from the same genetic degradation as the rest of their race. Unless they could have found a way to sexually reproduce again, the Asgard were a dead race. They had one final shot but it backfired and led to the rapid degeneration of their genetic code and so they killed themselves.

I forgot to add that part, which might be the most important.

[Lagger]

darn...

so all asgaurd knoweldge was put into a database..

adn we can choose any asgaurd "skin" we want to tell us the answers?
so there are no personalities there

there goes that idea...