Ancient Language, English run rampant Options

[avnrulz]

Okay, I checked the other nitpick topics, and if I missed it, I apologize for the double post. My first nitpick with Atlantis happened after the team arrived and found the room with the talking Hologram. If it took Daniel at least a season or two to decipher the Ancient Language on stones and in ruins, why did the Ancients speak English when the Hologram came up and told their history?

Riddle me that one, Batman!

[Dafmeister]

Ive always thought why they spoke English. Daniel says they spoke a variation of Medieval Latin. The Ancients probably spoke the same form of Latin that the Roman Empire spoke over 2000 years ago, as Daniel said the Romans were taught by Gods they called the Ancient Ones. Since Latin is a root dialect, that a lot of modern day languages are based on, maybe speaking English is a natural progression.

[Felger]

Well technically it would be closer to French or Italian because English is only 70% Latin whereas the other two are in the 80s or 90s? it?s a very good explanation and I?m sure the writers got around the old language problem with a similar track of thought.

There are many different explanations that the writers could throw at us, for example perhaps English is some sort of imbedded universal language, we know everybody else in the Milky Way uses it and everybody in Pegasus has so far. Plus we?ve heard the Athosians speak Ancient when they were praying, so there is a distinct difference between Ancient and English, it?s just the hologram conveniently spoke in a language understandable to the expedition so they even more conveniently didn?t have to translate the vital facts for half the premiere? or ?Before I Sleep? for that matter.

Of course we all know why they really use English in the show, there?s no truly valid explanation just something the creators fudge in order to satisfy the discontented fans who want a justification.

Anyway there is a ?Big Aliens Speaking English Thread? over in the SG-1 nitpicking area? however that?s a little broad ranged because we?ve never come across a spoken language that changes so dramatically over the course of the show, plus the Ancients speak English in Atlantis so this is a very valid topic to the subject area.

This post has been edited by Felger: Apr 1st 2005, 2:42 PM

[Tashunka_Witko]

I still say it's just for the better understanding of the show. It could last years until they figure out a really old language which evolved far away from Earth. By letting them speak English they can concentrate on the real important things they want to show us.

[Vixa]

We've seen that one can control Ancient Weapons with one's mind. It might be logical to assume that the hologram wirelessly downloaded "English" from the expedition team members, then it was able to talk English... But Athosians' situation is still "bizarre"...

[SorCerer]

Click for Spoiler

I don't remember if i read it or seen it in Atlantis - secrets revealed, but as far as i know they found a device that could translate between any languages in the galaxy

[rob117]

I'd still say it would be the most logical explanation that humans in the Milky Way are speaking some form of Goa'uld (which we can assume the SGC knows by now), and the Pegasus humans are speaking some form of Ancient (which perhaps the Atlantis team was required to learn before going on their expedition, in order to communicate with the Ancients that the SGC thought the Atlantis team would meet). It would be no skin off the producer's backs to imply this in the show, would satisfy nitpickers, and would not require any subtitles, as we would still hear it as English, even though it isn't English.

As for the "explanation" put forth by the creators of the show, that "all human languages would eventually evolve into modern English"- that is, to be blunt, bullsh*t. The chance of that happening is zero. It hasn't happened on Earth, let alone outer space. Linguistic evolution does not work like that; languages evolve depending on circumstances of society and environment, as well as just random word changes and slang expressions.

This post has been edited by rob117: Apr 3rd 2005, 1:53 PM

[Kronos]

i believe the ancients can speak english is because of dr wier. she did go back to the point when atlantis was being evacuated and while unconcious they could have downloaded english from her mind. if you remember the ancient hologram was one of the council members who was sympathetic to dr wiers plight(all though she never helped her or janis), im guessing she created the hologram so when the city detected humans again it atomaticly played.

[Dafmeister]

i believe the ancients can speak english is because of dr wier. she did go back to the point when atlantis was being evacuated and while unconcious they could have downloaded english from her mind. if you remember the ancient hologram was one of the council members who was sympathetic to dr wiers plight(all though she never helped her or janis), im guessing she created the hologram so when the city detected humans again it atomaticly played.

Good theory. We saw that Anubis used this tech too. Perhaps because we are apparently the second evolution of their kind, the natural progression is to speak English.

I dont like the idea of there being a translator device, too Star Trek . Id read rumours about a device like that when the first news about season 1 of Atlantis was just being released and thought it sounded bad back then too.

[Christy]

remember when dr weir went back in time? well that ancient did say she'd left something for the expedition team...and that would be the probable reason on why it's in english

[Kronos]

i agree with dafmeister. the ancients wouldnt need a translator because:

-1: they were probaly one in a handful of races at the time

-2: we know that the asgard and nocs could speak ancient, so we assume that the others could

-3: when the plague hit the ancients they went to seed the pegases galaxy with life and therefore the new life would speak ancient(even the wraith speak a form of ancient)

This post has been edited by Kronos: Apr 4th 2005, 1:47 PM

[michael]

They probably leant it from the asguared, who did say that they knew many languages, and there are some humans out there from earth, think about the medievil english village, the asguard probably learnt it from them.

[PheonixPara]

No, what the ancients spoke was the root for Latin. In the Lost city and another ep (sorry i forget the name), O'neall says a couple of semi-Latin phrases:

"Terra"

"Terra Atlantis"

"Atlantis sub glacio" <gramatically incorrect, but o well.

"Frons"

"Crux"

"Facultas"

I think he also said ewox (evox in proper latin) when he was on Taonas and looking at the pedistal. evox was the latin expression for wonder.

all those mean (in the close latin equivelents):
"Land"

"Land of Atlantis"

"Atlantis [is] under {the} ice" (no articles in latin, and in that case, the linking verb is implied)

"Head"

"Trouble"

"Ability"

So, truely, the ancients more or less spoke latin, and the Romans picked it up, and as history went by, the language evolved and various things (like grammer, pronunciation, etc.) changed and morphed.

Aliens speak english on the show to save time, there really is no good explanation for it. Although ur explanation covers the hologram, Kronos

[Dafmeister]

No, what the ancients spoke was the root for Latin.  In the Lost city and another ep (sorry i forget the name), O'neall says a couple of semi-Latin phrases:

Actually in 'The Fifth Race' Daniel said that Jack was speaking a derivation of Medieval Latin. From that statement I would assume that Medieval Latin and Ancient Latin are not the same language (logically Medieval Latin would have been derived from Ancient Latin).

[PheonixPara]

There are 2 key differences between midevil and ancient latin.
1. pronunciation of the 'V'
2. addition of the 'J"

origonally the v was pronounced like a w, but that changed with time. The j was added so as to differentiate between consanent 'i', short vowel 'i', and long vowel 'i'. so origonal roots like iudico became judico, which eventually influenced the english words judge, judicial, judiciary, jury, etc.

hope that clears it up.

[Dracodian Stonewall]

so do I, but as for the show come on it is a Tv show on atlantis they were able to get translaters but since Weir was transported to the Past she could have taught them english and thus it was able to spread to the other Humans as was already pointed out she came in contact with the one that left the message.

[Ze_Dummay]

Actually frons and facultas as you put them are real words. O'Neill says those words before he begins speaking complete Ancient, it's his brain merely using more difficult and complex words in an attempt to acclimate to the swelling knowledge in his head.

Another thing. English is not 70% Latin...far from it. English is derived from ancient German(read Beowulf and you'll see the simlilarities, get a copy that has the original writing and the translation). It's about 65-70% German bud, not Latin. Latin actually counts for very little in English. Most of our words are derived from French, Italian, Spanish, or another Romance Language(Latin derivitive).

[Deus Wrath]

the obvious reason why the message is in english is cos they don't want to waste the first half hour of the episode translating a blood hologram, especially when they were all about to drown...

story wise, we know the asgard are capable of speaking a number of different languages from the planets that they protect. the same is probably true for the ancients, and as earth was one of their homes i'm sure they spoke english too.

the message was probably recorded in ancient but it's intended to tell the atlantis story for the next race of people who discover atlantis (ideally humans from earth as they are the descendants of ancients). so there were probably a choice of languages for it to be translated into, including..... english

[Kronos]

actually, Ze dummy, spainish french and italian are all latin derived launguages and (except for a little of french)are not used in english.

[PheonixPara]

Actually frons and facultas as you put them are real words. O'Neill says those words before he begins speaking complete Ancient, it's his brain merely using more difficult and complex words in an attempt to acclimate to the swelling knowledge in his head.

that might be true, frons is used in english, but they are both taken straight from Latin. Frons litterally means in latin: forehead. Given in English it means: The anterior, uppermost part of the head of an insect., i dont think O'Neall was using it in the english context.

And yes, Latin makes up a chief part of the Language, i believe the statistic is 75% Latin, 20% Greek, and 5% Germanic and other languages; we just use the germanic based words very much in colloquial speech.

[Dracodian Stonewall]

quite right but that greatly depends on where you are from because British English is quite different from American English, or even Australian English because of where the words are being taken from in the U.S. they come from several different countries but the main Base comes from the British the same with Australian but they have incorporated words from other languages in to there common speech, starts as a pidgin and is slowly incorporated into the main language.

[Monty Python]

if the ancients spoke latin how come there writing is different and the hologram is in english

dont the wraith speak ancient aswell and the humans like teyla would be speaking latiin

[PheonixPara]

if the ancients spoke latin how come there writing is different and the hologram is in english

All languages are spoken before being written down; so naturally our symbols would be different.

There are a variety of reasons why the hologram could be speaking English. One, they downloaded it from Dr. Wiers mind. Two, the hologram spoke english when Beckett activated it (i.e. read his mind), three, the producers wanted to save time

dont the wraith speak ancient aswell and the humans like teyla would be speaking latiin

Well, the wraiths speak an ancient deriviteve (like Latin) and the language Teyla spoke was like Latin, yet the pronunciation was wrong and grammatically incorrect, so its related to Latin, the same way french and spanish are similar.

[Dracodian Stonewall]

thought you are right about the mistakes a language evolves over time so they are not exatly mistkes.