Who is more advanced The ASCHEN or The TOLLAN, The ASCHEN or The TOLLAN's Options

[NoDot]

You're right, he doesn't say that right after they get to Tollana, but they did say:

I heard that. Make your point.

And then we see a Stargate unlike anything else seen before. What do you think they meant?

I was thinking they used ships.

I don't think anyone else in the Galaxy was as technically advanced as the Ancients, only the other races in the Great Alliance could have helped them build a Stargate. The Tollan were advanced, but they weren't THAT advanced.

Well, the gate system is one piece of technology that they've probably had a few thousand years to study. It's possible they managed to understand enough of it to make their own gate (of their own design-they probably removed a few redundancies they didn't need).

Of course, the Stargate could just be 20 years beyond our understanding for all we actually know.

This post has been edited by NoDot: May 29th 2005, 5:09 PM

[Janos]

You're right, the Tollan are obviously as advanced as the Ancients, I mean, they can make a Stargate from scratch right? How could I have missed that....

[bigjohn_1972]

Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but that's not how the Stargate system works. the only time we've seen a wormhole go to another Galaxy on SG-1 was in the episode, "The Fifth Race".
Well, when a planet is no longer of use to the Goa'uld, for whatever reason, they ignore it. They ignored us because #1, we don't have Naquadah and #2, our Stargate was buried. They've ignored most of the other worlds SG-1 has been to. The Goa'uld are so arrogant, that if any human colony challenges them, they're sure they can wipe them off the face of the planet. They probably didn't care enough about the Aschen to do anything about them.
And that's the point. It's simple. We have two advanced races. Both encounter the Goa'uld. One is annihilated by the Goa'uld, one defeats the Goa'uld. It doesn't matter what could have been possible, it doesn't matter what might have been. The Tollan were not advanced enough to protect themselves from destruction. The Aschen were. The Tollan grew stale and complacent. Because of that, they died.

Everyone wants the Tollans to be more advanced because everyone likes the Tollan more than they like the Aschen. I myself, like the Tollan better and wish they were more advanced. Personally, I think the Aschen are one of the most annoying races we've encountered on Stargate and I don't really enjoy them as "bad guys". But I can look at the available data objectively and analyze what we've seen in the show without choosing sides ahead of time. And, after doing that, it's obvious that the Aschen is the better choice.
Why? If you're going to join the discussion, please use evidence to prove your points.

Those are good points.
However, if the Tollan were more like the Aschen, they too could have defeated the goa'uld. When 2010 was written, that was before the existence of Anubis. The only reason the goa'uld defeated the Tolan was because of Anubis and the freaky advanced technology he aquired. In fact the Tollan had technology that even Anubis didn't have, that is the ability to make matter go through other matter. I do not believe the Aschen now could defeat the goa'uld not with Anubis around.

This is basically a problem caused by the writing and writers. The Tollans were more advanced, they had super cool technology, could make their own gate etc. The Aschen were not even smart enough to figure out different gate addresses, let alone make their own gate.

P.S. we have gated to another galaxy more than once too (Atlantis).

[Janos]

Those are good points.
However, if the Tollan were more like the Aschen, they too could have defeated the goa'uld. When 2010 was written, that was before the existence of Anubis. The only reason the goa'uld defeated the Tolan was because of Anubis and the freaky advanced technology he aquired. In fact the Tollan had technology that even Anubis didn't have, that is the ability to make matter go through other matter. I do not believe the Aschen now could defeat the goa'uld not with Anubis around.

I know 2010 was written before Anubis was thought of. But it takes place after Anubis came to power. If the Aschen did in fact defeat the Goa'uld as was said in 2010, then they had to have defeated Anubis. Just because they didn't think of it earlier isn't a good answer. If they defeated the Goa'uld, they would have had to deal with Anubis as well.

This is basically a problem caused by the writing and writers.

Yeah... surprise, surprise

P.S. we have gated to another galaxy more than once too (Atlantis).

But not on SG-1

[bigjohn_1972]

I know 2010 was written before Anubis was thought of. But it takes place after Anubis came to power. If the Aschen did in fact defeat the Goa'uld as was said in 2010, then they had to have defeated Anubis. Just because they didn't think of it earlier isn't a good answer. If they defeated the Goa'uld, they would have had to deal with Anubis as well.
Yeah... surprise, surprise
But not on SG-1

I hear ya, but the technological abilities of the Aschen would not have been high enough to defeat Anubis. We would have to say they did for continuity in the show, but it doesn't make sense.

We did gate to another galaxy in SG-1 the show. They did it in season 8 to begin the spin off didn't they (I thought they did anyway)?

[NoDot]

You're right, the Tollan are obviously as advanced as the Ancients, I mean, they can make a Stargate from scratch right? How could I have missed that....

(I needed a minute to determine if that was sarcasm, and I think it is. I hate sarcasm.)

The sarcasm isn't appriciated. As I said, the Stargate is only one piece of technology. They've probably been studying it for at least a thousand years, so they must know how it works.

BTW,

If the Aschen did in fact defeat the Goa'uld as was said in 2010, then they had to have defeated Anubis.

No, they didn't have to have done so just yet. Anubis could have seen the end of his race comming, and decided to pull back and try to protect his assets. He could have been planning a strike the next day for all they could have known.

This post has been edited by NoDot: May 30th 2005, 1:22 PM

[Janos]

(I needed a minute to determine if that was sarcasm, and I think it is. I hate sarcasm.)

You don't like sarcasm? Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww..... I guess sarcasm invalidates all canon, huh?

They've probably been studying it for at least a thousand years, so they must know how it works.

How did you come by that figure?

BTW,No, they didn't have to have done so just yet. Anubis could have seen the end of his race comming, and decided to pull back and try to protect his assets. He could have been planning a strike the next day for all they could have known.

That's pure speculation, I'm talking about canon. We've seen on the show that Anubis arrives in 2001 (Season 5). If you're going to assume anything, it has to be based on canon. And based on canon, we assume Anubis had to have come. There is zero evidence that Anubis would not have come and 2 seasons of evidence that he did come.

[bigjohn_1972]

That's pure speculation, I'm talking about canon. We've seen on the show that Anubis arrives in 2001 (Season 5). If you're going to assume anything, it has to be based on canon. And based on canon, we assume Anubis had to have come. There is zero evidence that Anubis would not have come and 2 seasons of evidence that he did come.

Actually he has a point; the timeline was different so we can't assume the same thing would have happened. This is like the butterfly effect times 1000.

[NoDot]

You don't like sarcasm? Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww..... I guess sarcasm invalidates all canon, huh?

No, I just have a hard time with sarcasm.

How did you come by that figure?

I guessed, as simple as that. But, thinking about it, it's not too far off:

How long was the Dark Ages? about 800 or more years
How far are we from the times before the Dark Ages? certainly less then 300 years
Assuming 300 years, that leaves 500 minimum to advance beyond us. Considering how much we know about the gate system, I'd say we could gain enough knowledge (on our own) to build our own gate in 500 years too.

That's pure speculation, I'm talking about canon. We've seen on the show that Anubis arrives in 2001 (Season 5). If you're going to assume anything, it has to be based on canon. And based on canon, we assume Anubis had to have come. There is zero evidence that Anubis would not have come and 2 seasons of evidence that he did come.

I refer you to bigjohn_1972's comment.

[Janos]

Actually he has a point; the timeline was different so we can't assume the same thing would have happened. This is like the butterfly effect times 1000.

Nor can we use the same argument to disprove it. Simply by saying there's a possible discrepency doesn't prove the Tollan are more advanced nor does it prove the Aschen are less advanced.

But let's go with the Butterfly Effect. Chaos theory does not appear to be noticeable in the Stargate Universe. Let me refer to Mobius. I'll use spoilers just in case someone hasn't seen it yet...

Click for Spoiler

At the end of Mobius, after playing with the timeline, the only thing that's different were fish in Jack's pond. We're expected to believe that every single thing that happened before happend in exactly the same way. That's not quite the butterfly effect.

I'll say this again. I really don't like the Aschen. I think they were whiney crappy enemies. Most people, like me, like the Tollan a lot better - so most people want to think the Tollan are better than the Aschen. But looking at the facts, I just can't see it.

So, I'll re-iterate:

#1 In 2010, the Aschen beat the Goa'uld. This is Canon fact. It happened. The Tollan did not because their ion canon didn't penetrate the Goa'uld shields (Desperate Measures).

#2 People say that the Bio-Weapons could not have defeated the Goa'uld. Well, bio-weapons wouldn't scratch a fully shielded mothership, let alone a fleet of them. The only way that the Aschen could have done that would have been with powerful weapons. So, since we have point #1, we also must assume that they Aschen had these weapons

#3 People say that since Anubis wasn't thought up when we saw 2010, then we can't assume the Aschen were fighting him. Well, I agree partially. Yes, the producers made a stupid mistake, they should not have shown a human race able to defeat the Goa'uld so early in the show. However, the producer's stupid mistake does not invalidate canon. And there is not one single, solitary fact that even comes close to proving that Anubis would not have come in the previous timeline. Any theory that says that it is, is based on pure, unsupported speculation. Even if it's logical in nature, logic does not equal fact. However, it is a fact that Anubis was in the story since 2001 (Season 5). And since there is absolutely no reason NOT to believe he was in the alternate timeline, we assume he was there. And therefore, the Aschen weapons must have been able to penetrate his shields. We didn't know nearly as much about Ascension in that timeline as we do in this one, so Anubis himself might not have been dead, but his forces were.

So, because of the Tollan's poor military tatics and technology less advanced than the Goa'uld, they were destroyed by them. The Aschen on the other hand, didn't just save themselves. With the help of Earth, they brought war TO the Goa'uld and annhilated them.

[bigjohn_1972]

#1 In 2010, the Aschen beat the Goa'uld. This is Canon fact. It happened. The Tollan did not because their ion canon didn't penetrate the Goa'uld shields (Desperate Measures).

Not the goa'uld shields, but Anubis's shields. He would not have shared his new shield technology with the other goa'ulds. It was Anubis who was the downfall of the Tollans. Maybe it is splitting hairs, but if we made an alliance with the Aschen, that would have changed things. If we with the help of the Aschen started taking out the system lords, Anubis may (I know may, but it makes sense) have waited in the wings while the Aschen did his dirty work.

#2 People say that the Bio-Weapons could not have defeated the Goa'uld. Well, bio-weapons wouldn't scratch a fully shielded mothership, let alone a fleet of them. The only way that the Aschen could have done that would have been with powerful weapons. So, since we have point #1, we also must assume that they Aschen had these weapons

I think that is true. The Aschen must have had some kick ass weapons to take out the system lords. If we are to assume that Anubis didn't wait in the wings, their weapons must be comparable to the Asgard, as even Anubis's ship could withstand an attack from an Asgard ship, and even capture Thor. If that is the case, they have some killer ships.

#3 People say that since Anubis wasn't thought up when we saw 2010, then we can't assume the Aschen were fighting him. Well, I agree partially. Yes, the producers made a stupid mistake, they should not have shown a human race able to defeat the Goa'uld so early in the show. However, the producer's stupid mistake does not invalidate canon. And there is not one single, solitary fact that even comes close to proving that Anubis would not have come in the previous timeline. Any theory that says that it is, is based on pure, unsupported speculation. Even if it's logical in nature, logic does not equal fact. However, it is a fact that Anubis was in the story since 2001 (Season 5). And since there is absolutely no reason NOT to believe he was in the alternate timeline, we assume he was there. And therefore, the Aschen weapons must have been able to penetrate his shields. We didn't know nearly as much about Ascension in that timeline as we do in this one, so Anubis himself might not have been dead, but his forces were.

It is true that all the talk of Anubis fighting or not is pure speculation. They did state they defeated the goa'uld, but did they say they killed them all, as I don't believe we can kill Anubis, or maybe they could, they really are that super advanced. In order to take on Anubis with his tech which is superior to all goa'uld, they would have to be super duper advanced. While this is canon as you say, it is not logical. The Aschen weren't advanced enough to figure out different gate addresses, they didn't have the technology to walk through our iris, if the black hole really got them (as we have not heard from them) they weren't smart enough to disengage while us lowly humans were. These facts don't add up to them being super advanced, or as advanced as the Tollan.

Therefore I have to agree with you that according to canon, the Aschen must have been more advanced, but only do to some shitty writing.

[Janos]

Therefore I have to agree with you that according to canon, the Aschen must have been more advanced, but only do to some shitty writing.

Yeah, it may not be logical... but logic never stopped the writers before

But is is as logical as it could be based on illogical canon. That's kinda the best we can do.

This post has been edited by Janos: May 31st 2005, 9:32 AM

[NoDot]

OK, this whole thing is becomming hair-splitting. A look at GateWorld shows 5x09 (Between Two Fires) to be just before 5x10 (2001). This means Anubis had begun his return when the aliance with the Aschen began. Remember, we're talking an alternate timeline, so we have no idea what totally happened. All we know was what was on screen. Assumption is the cause of all mistakes.

What do we actually know about the alternate timeline? That's the question we need to look at.

[Janos]

All we know was what was on screen. Assumption is the cause of all mistakes.

Yes, but it's assumption either way. And when talking about a TV show, an assumption based on canonical evidence is more relevant than pure assumption

What do we actually know about the alternate timeline? That's the question we need to look at.

Nothing really, I'd like to know more, but I doubt the writers are going to do anything because that timeline is over.

[bigjohn_1972]

Ya, I think it pretty much is settled.

The way it was written, the Aschen are more advanced.

I still say that is shitty writing, but that is how it was written.

[USAFAUX2004]

Here is my Scientific aproach. Survival of the fittest...The Tollan were advanced, but they lost the basic human mark that made us dominant over other species, by our technology, not natural evolution. The Ashen looked out for only their asses, while the Tollan were isolated by their own will, and they were sure they would not be attacked. Plus they were not the only ones who made the Stargate on their new homeworld. The Knox, when revieled their city to SG-1 looked very much like an ancient city (or more or less Atlantis) They probably were the ones who did the most construction on the gate. After all, although they lived as a Utopian civilization, they are, by far the most advanced. The Tollan were destroyed, because they lost the agressive part of humanity.

[Andorian15]

The Ashen looked out for only their asses, while the Tollan were isolated by their own will, and they were sure they would not be attacked

Well, bolth civilizations were kinda arrogant in there own way, but I dont blame them for not giving a primitive scociety like our weapons that can do that!

But you got to admit the Ashen probably never got attacked becuase of THEIR isolation.

<- Its not spelled "knox"

Ya, I think it pretty much is settled.

good point, I'm pretty much a jackass for posting here, but I really think I the last post left alot of open ends.

[Aquila]

To me, this is a no-brainer! The Tollan.

[ha'tak]

Yes Tollan All the way

the ashen are complete accountants who show no emotion what soever

[Janos]

wait, wait.? The Ashcen were never attacked by the goa'uld.? The 2010 episode is 2010, that means, that at max, it took them 9 years to kill all the goa'uld.? Let's even say they did it 5 years before 2010, that still gave them 4 years since the day we met them (in 2001).? I think that given 2 years to prepare(or more) and 2 years to fight(or more) the tollan could have killed off the goa'uld.

But the fact remains, that the Tollan knew about the Goa'uld way longer than the Aschen did. And they died. It does not matter that they COULD have done it. All that matters is that they didn't do it. So, at the time of their demise, the were not able to repel the attack. The Aschen did, and not only did they do that, they took the fight to the Goa'uld and wiped them out.

It's not like we're talking quantum physics here. Sure, the COULD have done it given time. But they didn't. It's that simple. And since they're not around anymore to advance their technology, we have no basis to assume they would have. So, for the last time, AT THE TIME THEY WERE DESTROYED, not some possible future given them the chance to prepare, they were unable to defend themselves against the Goa'uld while canonical evidence shows that the Aschen were able to.

This post has been edited by Janos: Jul 30th 2005, 5:22 PM

[Aurik]

Well the Tollans got their asses handed to them by the Goauld....while the Aschen wiped them out in that alternative future....so I'd put my money on the Aschen.

I can see the Tollan turning Jupiter into a mini star.

I do not believe this is a matter of who would be defeated by the Goa'uld, but who is more advanced. I believe both races were highly advanced and skilled in different aspects however, I supported the Tollan in this poll for they possessed a higher level of understanding of the universe than the Aschen. Although the Tollan are the most arrogant, obnoxious, self conceited, ignorant, selfish, gullible, pathetic, race that SG-1 has encountered they will have my vo....Noo I can't do it. I hate the Tollan. I have already placed my vote, but personally I am changing sides. Any race that would allow the Goa'uld to represent themselves in a trial, and actually listens to his reasoning is an idiotic race. The Tollan also agreed to offer their technology to the Goa'uld, after they constantly expressed their resistance to trade with Earth. The Aschen would handled a similar situation properly and effectively, but the Tollan sat on their asses and did nothing. Alright I have expressed my anger towards the Tollan quite well, and I may have leaned toward the idea of who got defeated by the Goa'uld a little although I disagreed with that view in the beginning of my post. The Tollan deserved to be destroyed for their lack of ethics. Dumb Tollans. Ok I am done. I wasted a half hour of my time to explain how much I disliked the Tollans. I hate the Tollans. Now I am done. Thank you Tannith for doing me a favor. Thank you Tollan for destroying yourselves and your superior race. Curia. They need a Curia for being a pain in my ass. That was a good line. I have plenty more, but I will not continue this post any further. I must leave now.

[themeancanadian]

Since the episode 2010 was a season 4 episode and was written before between two fires, The writers messed up, making the Aschen seem more powerful than they are. In this case, the canon seems to contradicts itself but then again, earth did end up defeating anubis in the end so the aschen could have done it too. From what they have showen us on the show of both races technological capabilities, the Tollan were far superiour. This really means nothing in terms of who would beat who, as humans beat anubis.

The question should be if a tollan and an aschen are fighting in the forest and a tree falls on both of them, would anyone care?

[Janos]

Since the episode 2010 was a season 4 episode and was written before between two fires, The writers messed up, making the Aschen seem more powerful than they are. In this case, the canon seems to contradicts itself

What are you talking about? There is no contradiction.

From what they have showen us on the show of both races technological capabilities, the Tollan were far superiour.

I can make unfounded statements without any evidence too:

From what they have shown us on the show of both race's technological capabilities, the Aschen were far superior.

All of the arguments I've ever made about the Aschen have been from what we've seen on the show.

[themeancanadian]

I can make unfounded statements without any evidence too:

From what they have shown us on the show of both race's technological capabilities, the Aschen were far superior.

The Tollan understand the gate technology and can even make their own gates, the Aschen on the other hand have not gotten past the tip of the iceberg in terms of gate knowledge as they only use it between world to which they have travelled in their ships.

This is evidence that one race is more advanced than the other.

As far as the contradiction goes, It doesn't matter that one race defeated the Goa'uld as it proves nothing with regards to their technological capability. Earth ended but basically defeating them by the end of season 8 so does that mean we could have defeated the Tollan even though we're behind both the Tollan and the Aschen in term of technology?

In a fight between the Tollan and the Aschen, it could simply be decided on who is the better fighter. In this case it does matter that one was defeated by the Goa'uld and the other wasn't.

It's a strange argument, it's like saying a big guy can beat up a small guy even though the small guy knows kung fu or something and could actually kick the big guys ass.